The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

As heavy goods vehicle manufacturers and car makers including Toyota and BMW continue to develop green hydrogen fuel-cell powertrains, a new trial aims to determine whether the natural gas grid can be used to efficiently transport hydrogen to filling stations around the UK. 

According to leading UK hydrogen infrastructure company Element 2, the ‘real world trial’ stage of the ‘HyNTS Deblending for Transport Applications’ project will create a fully functioning de-blending and refuelling facility, to showcase how grid-extracted hydrogen can be purified, stored and used for heavy transport refuelling. If successful, it could greatly simplify the logistical problems around transporting the gas in tankers to where it will be needed as a road fuel, while potentially making significant cost savings.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/360683/uk-hydrogen-fuel-stations-be-supplied-natural-gas-grid-new-trial

Edit: this trial might not be successful but, if it is, it may get over one of the obstacles to a more widespread use of green hydrogen.

QrizB

JKenH said:

Edit: this trial might not be successful but, if it is, it may get over one of the obstacles to a more widespread use of green hydrogen.

It's an interesting idea and I look forward to hearing how the trials turn out.

ABrass

JKenH said:

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

As heavy goods vehicle manufacturers and car makers including Toyota and BMW continue to develop green hydrogen fuel-cell powertrains, a new trial aims to determine whether the natural gas grid can be used to efficiently transport hydrogen to filling stations around the UK. 

According to leading UK hydrogen infrastructure company Element 2, the ‘real world trial’ stage of the ‘HyNTS Deblending for Transport Applications’ project will create a fully functioning de-blending and refuelling facility, to showcase how grid-extracted hydrogen can be purified, stored and used for heavy transport refuelling. If successful, it could greatly simplify the logistical problems around transporting the gas in tankers to where it will be needed as a road fuel, while potentially making significant cost savings.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/360683/uk-hydrogen-fuel-stations-be-supplied-natural-gas-grid-new-trial

Edit: this trial might not be successful but, if it is, it may get over one of the obstacles to a more widespread use of green hydrogen.

Deblending apparently costs in the region of €1-2 per kg for Membrane systems.

Given a price per kg of hydrogen of around €5 that's a significant fraction, ignoring all the other costs involved in getting the hydrogen into the system in the first place.

It'll be an interesting trial but I'm betting it'll be cancelled as unfeasible in a year or two.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

As heavy goods vehicle manufacturers and car makers including Toyota and BMW continue to develop green hydrogen fuel-cell powertrains, a new trial aims to determine whether the natural gas grid can be used to efficiently transport hydrogen to filling stations around the UK. 

According to leading UK hydrogen infrastructure company Element 2, the ‘real world trial’ stage of the ‘HyNTS Deblending for Transport Applications’ project will create a fully functioning de-blending and refuelling facility, to showcase how grid-extracted hydrogen can be purified, stored and used for heavy transport refuelling. If successful, it could greatly simplify the logistical problems around transporting the gas in tankers to where it will be needed as a road fuel, while potentially making significant cost savings.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/360683/uk-hydrogen-fuel-stations-be-supplied-natural-gas-grid-new-trial

Edit: this trial might not be successful but, if it is, it may get over one of the obstacles to a more widespread use of green hydrogen.

Electricity>Electrolysis to produce hydrogen>Blend with gas>Extract from gas>store>Fuel vehicle>Fuel cell to produce electricity.

That's a convoluted path & likely to be pretty expensive even if the electricity is free in the first place. 

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

As heavy goods vehicle manufacturers and car makers including Toyota and BMW continue to develop green hydrogen fuel-cell powertrains, a new trial aims to determine whether the natural gas grid can be used to efficiently transport hydrogen to filling stations around the UK. 

According to leading UK hydrogen infrastructure company Element 2, the ‘real world trial’ stage of the ‘HyNTS Deblending for Transport Applications’ project will create a fully functioning de-blending and refuelling facility, to showcase how grid-extracted hydrogen can be purified, stored and used for heavy transport refuelling. If successful, it could greatly simplify the logistical problems around transporting the gas in tankers to where it will be needed as a road fuel, while potentially making significant cost savings.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/360683/uk-hydrogen-fuel-stations-be-supplied-natural-gas-grid-new-trial

Edit: this trial might not be successful but, if it is, it may get over one of the obstacles to a more widespread use of green hydrogen.

Electricity>Electrolysis to produce hydrogen>Blend with gas>Extract from gas>store>Fuel vehicle>Fuel cell to produce electricity.

That's a convoluted path & likely to be pretty expensive even if the electricity is free in the first place. 

Indeed, and I have my doubts that it will prove economic but then again many other technologies started off expensive. We always compare hydrogen derived energy with the current cost of PV and wind but look where their pricing was 20 or even 10 years ago. Without looking up the exact figures I think we were subsidising wind to the tune of >£150/MWh (and without starting another argument  still are) on the early contracts. There is also the potential for hydrogen plants to provide balancing services. We saw recently that NG were paying £550/MWh to take surplus generation off their hands. Hydrogen plants would never be economic running only a fraction of the time but with more and more renewables coming on stream the need for balancing the grid grows.

It’s really hard to make an economic case as @ABrass points out but economics are continually changing. Let’s prove the technology works(or doesn’t) then if it does there may be economies of scale in the future just as there have been with wind. 

It concerns me that the same economic arguments are being used against hydrogen as were used 20/30 years ago about renewables, and worryingly by the same people who shouted the loudest about Wright’s Law in the context of falling renewables costs. .

Renewables were heavily subsidised to get the industry moving. Should we not do the same with hydrogen given its potential for using up the increasing RE spill and solving some of the transportation problems that (at the moment) are a challenge for batteries. As with the first few wind farms, the cost of subsidising development may prove beneficial in the long run (or of course it might not in the case of hydrogen. Technology progresses even if the incumbent technologies resist it.

(Edit: There is quite a lot at stake here. If it can be made to work we have the opportunity to eliminate fossil fuels from transport. Politically it might prove popular among those in the camp that reject EVs because they are waiting for hydrogen to come along.)

As I said, like you, I have my doubts but better to try and fail than not give it a chance. 

ABrass

We've done the hydrogen thing to death, but in short: optimistic assumptions leave hydrogen as expensive even when at scale and it needs a critical mass up front to work at all.

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

QrizB

ABrass said:

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

This hydrogen-powered vehicle has an impressive range and 20 years of successful commercial operations. We should develop the design further and reduce costs so every home can have one!

Exiled_Tyke

ABrass said:

We've done the hydrogen thing to death, but in short: optimistic assumptions leave hydrogen as expensive even when at scale and it needs a critical mass up front to work at all.

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

I can't remember whether I mentioned it on these boards or not. I was recently talking to someone who works as a research scientist in RE. His opinion was that hydrogen may well have a place in transport but only for large scale operations.  He thinks that shipping may be its best potential and this is definitely an industry which needs to get cleaner. 

ABrass

QrizB said:

ABrass said:

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

This hydrogen-powered vehicle has an impressive range and 20 years of successful commercial operations. We should develop the design further and reduce costs so every home can have one!

You may or may not be aware but that particular vehicle has been retired as it's not economically competitive and the proposed hydrogen based replacement is seen as a doomed compliance vehicle.

1961Nick

ABrass said:

We've done the hydrogen thing to death, but in short: optimistic assumptions leave hydrogen as expensive even when at scale and it needs a critical mass up front to work at all.

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

The obvious way to distribute hydrogen energy is through the existing electricity grid.

The sensible place to generate & burn hydrogen is at decommissioned coal fired power stations as all the distribution infrastructure is already in place.