Is education in the UK a scam ?

shortcrust

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

Just to add to my previous post so as not to appear hypocritical!


I actually disagree with university tuition fees...

This pretty much applies to me too, but the OP didn’t make this thread in the hope of starting a reasoned debate about tuition fees. They came here to have a moan about their own circumstances, which is a little galling when you consider that they’re in the top 5% of earners in the UK (according to the IFS calculator).

ETA: Just think about that. A young person earning more than 95% of the UK which means they almost certainly expect to be very wealthy in the years ahead, with a large house in a lovely area. There’s no hardship and no struggle, yet they bristle with rage that they have to pay a relatively modest amount towards the education that has presumably been instrumental to their current success. Not “I can afford to pay this, but what about people on lower incomes?” but rather “How dare they take a cut of my lovely lovely money?”.

Manxman_in_exile

spadoosh wrote: »

Im assuming you didnt study economics?

On £60k I suspect they may have done. I thought they might be a lawyer but the presence of non-UK graduates suggests to me they didn't.


Economics isn't a proper subject anyway, and is a disbenefit to society. Quite right they should pay their own way...

happyandcontented

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

Just to add to my previous post so as not to appear hypocritical!


I actually disagree with university tuition fees. I think it should be free* - funded out of general taxation revenue. For those graduates who benefit financially from their qualification (eg £60k+ at 23 and god knows what at 40 - 50) they ought to be funding higher education through a properly graduated and progressive taxation system (which I think the OP would be happy about).


Of course, as others have pointed out, university fees don't really create a "debt" in the normal sense of the word. As Martin keeps pointing out on radio and TV, the repayment (or not) of the "debt" is better seen as an additional tax on graduates earning above a particular threshold.


That's ok, but where I think it is wrong is that I've no doubt the words "fees" and "debt" inevitably discourage some students, perhaps from working class backgrounds from applying to university. (My parents would have told me I couldn't "afford" it).


*I accept that there may be a valid argument about whether all degrees should be state funded. I generally think that more graduates is a benefit for society as a whole, but I do fail to see the value of some subjects. (And as suggested above - I think Blair's idea of having 50% of adults go to university is bonkers. We need more technical colleges and apprenticeships as in, for example, Germany).

I agree with the above. My youngest son has just graduated with c60k of debt for a 4 years degree but he got a First in MChemEng. He walked straight into high paid employment and will start to pay it off from next April, and he seems fine with that. However, as parents who went through the system when it was free, we also think that those in power pulled the ladder up behind them.

I work in education and can see that the system does discourage those from working-class backgrounds because they fear that level of debt regardless of what anyone tells them or how it is explained. That said, I also think it is immoral to actively encourage low achievers to apply for courses just get bums on seats, which is definitely what happens.

There should be many more vocational opportunities for the less academic rather than schools and colleges just pushing them towards university.

motorguy

justcamehere5 wrote: »

Post 15 and post 18. Thanks.

Perhaps then you should have moved to Germany for your studies?

And you did sign up and agree to it - noone forced you?

motorguy

gettingtheresometime wrote: »

I don't think I've ever called someone a wind up merchant but the OP coming seriously close.

The situation in the U.K. is what it is.

The situation in Germany is what it is

The situation in the US is what it is.

For goodness sake OP grow up.

Exactly.

You cant go round cherry picking the best features of any particular economy, ignoring all the issues and downsides to that particular economy, and bleat on about it not being the same here.

motorguy

justcamehere5 wrote: »

I do. Why do you think I am not thankful? As mentioned, happy to be taxed in the higher bracket to help.

But all of the things you mentioned are the same in Germany and the Netherlands.

You're really getting peoples backs up frankly - bleating on about having had to pay for the education that put you in to the job you're in then dropping in repeatedly how much money you're on for your age is not going to garner you much sympathy.

Manxman_in_exile

happyandcontented wrote: »

I work in education and can see that the system does discourage those from working-class backgrounds because they fear that level of debt regardless of what anyone tells them or how it is explained. That said, I also think it is immoral to actively encourage low achievers to apply for courses just get bums on seats, which is definitely what happens.

There should be many more vocational opportunities for the less academic rather than schools and colleges just pushing them towards university.

Exactly this. We've designed a system that must discourage some able students from applying whilst at the same time encouraging people to apply who shouldn't be within a million miles of a university - and who if they stay the course end up with a valueless degree diploma. It's cynical exploitation by HEIs.


I assume the architects of this system didn't study economics as who would expect more people to apply to university to pay for something that used to be free? (Or maybe economics isn't always right).


They probably studied PPE at Oxbridge - an example of a degree that combines three pointless academic subjects and is only fit for training people to enter politics - because they'd be too useless in any other walk of life.


Thank god for chemical engineers! Wonder if there are many of them in politics?

motorguy

spadoosh wrote: »

Germans pay for germans to have free/cheap university education.

Brits do not pay for brits to have as cheap university education.

You say taxation is similar betewen the two countries and its just not.

Our tax to gdp ratio is ~33.33%

Germanys is 37.5%.

UK GDP to public spending ratio is about 38%

In Germany its closer to 44.5%.


Germans do pay more in tax. Paying more in tax allows them to have cheaper tuition fees. Its that simple. Assuming you work in the UK you pay less tax than a german would in germany earning the same (saving quirks of the tax system).

The problem of having high tax and low tuition fees is one you should realise. That being where are all your international friends working? Its not in their home countries is it? So they took the cheap tuition at the german tax payers expense and then took their productivity to contribute to another economy.

Where as you, well you dont want to work in germany, youll pay more tax and considering youve got to pay back your loan as well it doesnt make financial sense.

Im assuming you didnt study economics?

^^^^
This.

Totally.

You cant cherry pick the best bits of a given economy.

The O/P needs to view it as a form of taxation, not debt.

The whole thing needs to be repackaged as a taxation and implemented as such.

SingleSue

I've had two go through the university system and one currently in it, their background is from the lower income bracket (benefits due to disabilities). Whilst eldest winces when he sees his student finance statement, he also acknowledges that without it, he now wouldn't be earning what he currently is and has been since he graduated...much more than his friends from school who didn't go to university.

Middle son is just 'chill' about it all (he's 'chill' about everything but then he is a musician:D)

Youngest son sees it as a necessary evil and believes that education is something that you need to invest in to reap the rewards later and to him it is just a graduation tax.

The fees and loans didn't deter any of them.

Silvertabby

“ Nope, I just want the UK to have free education for all like Germany. Given that taxation is very similar, I think it is a fair thing to expect.

Originally posted by justcamehere5

The only way university education could be 'free' would be if the building itself had been donated by a benefactor, and all the employees therein (from the Dean to the support staff) worked as unpaid volunteers. Otherwise, it has to be paid for.

As has been said before, uni fees are cheaper in Germany because the shortfall is made up by higher general taxation. Moreover, it's deemed to be 'affordable' because the percentage of Germans who enter higher education is much lower than the UK. Something like 30% to our 50%.

Remember that university fees were introduced by Tony Blair (yes, Labour!) who wanted to get as many youngsters as possible into uni in so they wouldn't bump up the unemployed total. Even he knew that the British taxpayer couldn't/wouldn't stand for that, hence the introduction of fees.