BEVs deals and information

Martyn1981

JKenH wrote: »

Not your exact words but you were implying that there wasn’t a problem and I was “imagineering” one.

Nope. Never even implied there wasn't a problem, that's just your imagination making up carp again.

What there is, is a growing BEV rollout, and a corresponding growing charging rollout. Just like any new industry, product.

Oldies (like us) can waste our time imagineering new problems, only to find that they've been discussed for many years on the BEV thread, or storage thread, or PV thread, or RE thread (etc etc), and in reality, these 'ideas' are not new, they are old and have already been dealt with ...... such as a growing number of charging locations, as BEV numbers grow.

That's the beauty of being positive, we get to enjoy the revolutions, rather than spending all day moaning about imagineered issues.

You never know, in -5 or -10 years time, someone might invent GA's Rx BEV that doesn't exist in his sizeable knowledge of the issue?

It's a funny ole world ain't it.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

It won't be long before businesses at 'destinations' are demanding chargers are installed for their customer base.

For example; BEV owners are the perfect demographic for an out of town shopping centre to entice. Covering the roof with solar panels & installing a very visible WT would make it a very marketable destination to the environmentally conscious.

They'd only do it if it made economic sense

The good news is a shopping center can probably install 20 X 7KW chargers for not much money
Perhaps as little as £6,000 and each charger would be used more than a home charger

The bad news is that they would probably charge 15p a unit for the electricity in which case why not charge at home at 15p or at night at 5p

Charging isn't a huge issue it's the price of the cars that limit adoption
They need to cost the same as diesel or less for limited range <150 mile versions
They need to cost no more than £3k more than a diesel with decent ranges (250+ miles)

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Nope. Never even implied there wasn't a problem, that's just your imagination making up carp again.

What there is, is a growing BEV rollout, and a corresponding growing charging rollout. Just like any new industry, product.

Oldies (like us) can waste our time imagineering new problems, only to find that they've been discussed for many years on the BEV thread, or storage thread, or PV thread, or RE thread (etc etc), and in reality, these 'ideas' are not new, they are old and have already been dealt with ...... such as a growing number of charging locations, as BEV numbers grow.

That's the beauty of being positive, we get to enjoy the revolutions, rather than spending all day moaning about imagineered issues.

You never know, in -5 or -10 years time, someone might invent GA's Rx BEV that doesn't exist in his sizeable knowledge of the issue?

It's a funny ole world ain't it.

Plug in hybrids exist they just need to get cheaper and better and at least for the short term are a better solution because you can build many more for a given battery capacity

Tesla should produce a hybrid plug in model 3
80 mile range 19KWh battery pack + 250 mile range extender for £33,000
Such a car would achieve in most hands >95% annual miles as electric

Compared to their £48,000 long range model it would be far more affordable and they can build 4 x as many for a given number of batteries

What's better 100% of electric miles or 4 x 95% = 380% of miles Electric?

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

They'd only do it if it made economic sense

The good news is a shopping center can probably install 20 X 7KW chargers for not much money
Perhaps as little as £6,000 and each charger would be used more than a home charger

The bad news is that they would probably charge 15p a unit for the electricity in which case why not charge at home at 15p or at night at 5p

Charging isn't a huge issue it's the price of the cars that limit adoption
They need to cost the same as diesel or less for limited range <150 mile versions
They need to cost no more than £3k more than a diesel with decent ranges (250+ miles)

Retailers could issue voucher codes for free charging on the next visit.

There's no need to worry about cheaper EVs yet because there's plenty of business to be done over £25K. Tesla aren't having any trouble shifting the Model 3 at £32K - £52K. I wouldn't be surprised if the LR & Performance weren't outselling the basic model.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Retailers could issue voucher codes for free charging on the next visit.

There's no need to worry about cheaper EVs yet because there's plenty of business to be done over £25K. Tesla aren't having any trouble shifting the Model 3 at £32K - £52K. I wouldn't be surprised if the LR & Performance weren't outselling the basic model.

Why would the retailer wish to sub a BEV owner?
If this was a good idea why not issue a token for a free litre or two of petrol?
Or simply not charge for use of their car park
Shopping centers aims are to maximize profit not to offer free charging or free parking

Yes Tesla is doing okay sales but don't forget this is with quite heavy government subsidies
In the USA they had $7,500 per car subsidy in the UK it's £3.5k direct subsidy and then almost £10k in not paying fuel taxes and also £500 charger install subs. These are unaffordable sums when BEVs hopefully scale up

Also iirc the aim was for 500,000 model 3s per year at their current plant. This year I think they are on target for about 300,000. The US tax credits run out in January so effectively the price goes up $1875 next year in their biggest market

silverwhistle

JKenH wrote: »

While some might make out I am imagineering a problem of shortage of chargers in my locality others might consider it is inadequate and it needs to be improved before those without home charging facilities will embrace EVs as a practical proposition.

Nobody is doubting the shortage of chargers in your area, nor the need to improve the situation, and that includes those people with EVs or considering them. But the way you go on does seem to be harping on the problem side as opposed to the solutions. Going on about problems was never a good look where I used to work!



On a more general point, there will need to be some investment where there may well not be an immediate demand, but that is the same as the mobile phone network. It wouldn't be a network if it were confined to the cities (with apologies to all rural dwellers still in black holes). My point again about travellers and through traffic.



It's going to be a see-saw of demand against supply, and to get the system going there's naturally going to be over-supply and under-supply in particular areas, as the recent survey of local council areas showed.

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

Why would the retailer wish to sub a BEV owner?
If this was a good idea why not issue a token for a free litre or two of petrol?
Or simply not charge for use of their car park
Shopping centers aims are to maximize profit not to offer free charging or free parking

Yes Tesla is doing okay sales but don't forget this is with quite heavy government subsidies
In the USA they had $7,500 per car subsidy in the UK it's £3.5k direct subsidy and then almost £10k in not paying fuel taxes and also £500 charger install subs. These are unaffordable sums when BEVs hopefully scale up

Also iirc the aim was for 500,000 model 3s per year at their current plant. This year I think they are on target for about 300,000. The US tax credits run out in January so effectively the price goes up $1875 next year in their biggest market

All the out of town shopping centres I know offer free parking. Maximising profit is all about maximising footfall for these businesses. Encouraging visitors that can afford a new £25K - £80K car seems like an eminently sensible idea to me.

Do you honestly think that an increase of $1875 is going to make one iota of a difference to TM3 sales? There's so much low hanging fruit out there that Tesla won't have to worry for at least another 3 years.

silverwhistle

1961Nick wrote: »

All the out of town shopping centres I know offer free parking. Maximising profit is all about maximising footfall for these businesses. Encouraging visitors that can afford a new £25K - £80K car seems like an eminently sensible idea to me.

Even here it's worth remembering that there are different markets. Two local supermarkets have very recently installed chargers: the Tesco has free 7kw ones, a local Morrisons fast and paid for, and handy for passing trade as it's just off an A(M) road.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

All the out of town shopping centres I know offer free parking. Maximising profit is all about maximising footfall for these businesses. Encouraging visitors that can afford a new £25K - £80K car seems like an eminently sensible idea to me.

The only shopping centre with free car parking in London afaik is Brent Cross and they will start charging in 2020

Someone who can afford an £80k electric car is going to go to their nearest shopping center not 20 miles further to try and save 50p on electricity (and add 20 miles to their car and spend 50p in electricity to drive further) and the malls know this

If I owned a mall I would put in 5 free slow chargers just to say some are availing
The cars are paying around £1.50/hour parking anyway so they can have 30p/hour 'free' electricity

Do you honestly think that an increase of $1875 is going to make one iota of a difference to TM3 sales? There's so much low hanging fruit out there that Tesla won't have to worry for at least another 3 years.

Over the last four quarters Tesla has lost $828 million (two small profit quarters offset by two much larger losses quarters)

If you believe $1,875 extra would have made no difference to sales then why didn't Tesla just charge $1,875 more a year ago until now?? Their $828 million loss would have been $526 million smaller loss. Maybe you are right Tesla can charge more but I'd assume if they could they probably would have

The car market is actually pretty competitive
Not only do manufacturers compete with each other but they compete with the old stock too

I don't expect Tesla sales to crash come Q1 but some people who would have bought won't buy since the effective cost goes up $1,875 in a couple of months time. $1,875 is a lot of money you can buy 750 gallons of fuel and do 30,000 miles with that fuel. it adds 50,000 miles to the break even cost of a model 3 Vs a ICE car Vs whatever the cost is today

Also interesting to note the last 12 months would have been a break even if they charged $2700-$2800 more per model 3

GreatApe

silverwhistle wrote: »

Even here it's worth remembering that there are different markets. Two local supermarkets have very recently installed chargers: the Tesco has free 7kw ones, a local Morrisons fast and paid for, and handy for passing trade as it's just off an A(M) road.

It's great that they are doing this but it's for PR they wouldn't be installing free electricity for everyone if BEVs existed in mass market size

100TWh free electricity to electrify UK transport would cost £15 billion a year
No one is going to give £15 billion a year away for free apart from maybe the government and then it's only free in the way the NHS is 'free'

Actually that might work
Free government charge points everywhere including most car parks
Charge for free as much as you want anywhere you want
Road tax changes to 15p a mile for EVs but free Electricity
Deploy half a million 7KW chargers and 50,000 100KW fast chargers across the UK that would cover everywhere and enough for everyone until half the stock are BEVs

With chargers literally everywhere and for free then small battery BEVs become far more practical
100 mile BEVs would be fine as you can charge for free on each end