A Question for Tory Supporters

nigelbb

Arklight wrote: »

Nope, sorry. A majority of people making the wrong decision doesn't make me any less right and them any less wrong.

Except it wasn't a majority. 51.5% of the votes last Thursday went to parties supporting another referendum. Only 46.4% went to parties that supported leaving the EU.

It's only because of the quirks of FPTP that the Tories have a majority of seats let alone such a large one. The share of votes cast for the Tories was up just 1.2% from 42.4% in 2017 to 43.6% in 2019 & the increase in total votes was only 300,000 up yet they got nearly 50 more seats.

MobileSaver

Arklight wrote: »

Have faith. In Corbyn!

Arklight wrote: »

A majority of people making the wrong decision doesn't make me any less right and them any less wrong. Don't you worry. I'm not going anywhere.

Unlike your flawed hero who is about to disappear into obscurity.

The thing is you were all warned repeatedly what would happen with Corbyn in charge and you all thought you knew better and ignored the warnings; you can keep telling yourself you were right and the majority was wrong but, until you accept the truth, the Labour party is finished as a serious political force.

CLAPTON wrote: »

[2016] labour in the wilderness for 20 years

ukcarper wrote: »

[2016] But he's the problem I'm a lifelong Labour supporter and will not vote for him and I'm not the only one.

MaxiRobriguez

Some Corbyn backers be like:



Be smart, do some introspection, realise people didn't want a socialist utopia and help rebuild the party into something that can be elected in five years time, or forever do your bit to ensure a Tory government in perpetuity.

Your choice Momentum.

borntobefree

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

Be smart, do some introspection, realise people didn't want a socialist utopia and help rebuild the party into something that can be elected in five years time, or forever do your bit to ensure a Tory government in perpetuity.

Your choice Momentum.

Amen to that.

I can’t believe the lack of insight into their own failings that the Corbyn supporters are showing. If Arklight’s reaction is typical, the LP is doomed.

Moby

HRH_MUngo wrote: »

As a Tory voter, I am delighted with the result

I would like Boris to make sure that he keeps his promise to all those people in the North-East who bravely 'lent' him their vote so that the Marxist menace could be overcome and Parliament released from its deadlock.

Also to re-organise the NHS so that any money put into it does not just vanish into a black hole.

Obviously get our trade deals sorted out, after the Withdrawal Agreement .

To make our cities a safer place to be, coming down hard on knife crime.

The socially conservative north and midlands voted for Johnson in large numbers but remember such people are traditionally also much more big state and socialist when it comes to economics. Perhaps they have all suddenly changed though......?

Perhaps there are hundreds of new micro businesses just waiting to spring up once we are freed of the shackles of the EU. I'm especially hoping Johnson's new cohort of cheerleaders in Don Valley, Bassetlaw, Grimsby, Redcar etc have just been straining at the leash for such entrepreneurial opportunities. Clearly economic regeneration of the North of England will require such a continuing revenue stream to the UK Exchequer.

borntobefree

What puzzles me is why people voted for JC in 2017, not that they didn’t vote for him 2019.

To this day I’m baffled by that?

SpiderLegs

borntobefree wrote: »

What puzzles me is why people voted for JC in 2017, not that they didn’t vote for him 2019.

To this day I’m baffled by that?

Because it’s quite clear that the labour party’s mistake in 2019 was the same as the tories in 2017.

I.e. Don’t assume the support of your core is guaranteed if your policies aren’t in their direct interest.

The momentum line that everything is the same so it’s not JCs fault is rubbish. TM wrecked the tories in 2017. The tories learnt the lesson. Labour I suspect will not.

MaxiRobriguez

borntobefree wrote: »

What puzzles me is why people voted for JC in 2017, not that they didn’t vote for him 2019.

To this day I’m baffled by that?

We supported the commitment to leave the EU in the 2017 election. It was a strong, moral position to take and gave people in the heartlands the feeling that although it would be tough on the wider party and membership who were pro-remain, we would implement what they voted for. That was decisive, and it went some way to masking some of the weak leadership.

In 2019, forced by the remainers within the party and the membership to back a second referendum whereby the choice would be between defacto remain and remain, we lost scores of people who felt betrayed that we'd gone back on our earlier position. Once we'd lost the argument on the most important aspect of our time, the lack of clarity in the leadership came to the fore too - people started questioning the manifesto policies in terms of our ability to deliver them and whether or not they were really going to make a positive impact on peoples lives. We responded by going even harder to the left, releasing ill considered single policies and providing no sense we'd learned any lessons about fiscal responsibility.

I blame both sides. The far left didn't realise their agenda wasn't actually as popular as they thought, and the centrists didn't realise that just backing remain and pretending nothing had happened was going to bite us.

I think we probably would have won if we had managed to cobble together a position whereby the leader was someone like Yvette Cooper, the position on Brexit was that we will deliver it but in such a way that protects jobs and the economy, and the domestic policies were far less ambitious, probably stopping at renationalisation rail franchises as they expired and instead choosing to give a message of certainty in stable politics and inviting investment back into the country. We chose none of those things, and hey presto, look where we are.

The real problem is a complete dearth of intellectualism in the left at the moment, compounded by these people thinking they are the intellectual ones and everyone else is wrong. You know what's going to happen next, it's as obvious as the car crash of the election, the Corbyn and McDonnell will stay on for a few weeks and oversee the recruitment process, recommended a successor which suits their politics, Momentum will retain such big numbers because their leadership will call to fight back and the NEC will be dominated by this type such they vote in the completely wrong successor and give us another run of these policies in 2024, at which point we'll get battered again. You might even have a split before then if the remaining centrists give up and try and work with the Lib Dems.

PaulW1965

Arklight wrote: »

They've been in power for nine years. They've added billions to the national debt and driven the poorest and most vulnerable people in Britain to the edge of despair, as well as gutting our public services.

Boris Johnson appears to be a cowardly, misogynistic racist who hides in fridges and confiscates journalist's phones rather than face the evidence of this. When he's not babbling incoherently when asked to justify his, apparently endless, lying.

How much more of a chance do you think they need?

Oh, who cares. That's what English people want. Hope they enjoy it.

And yet, the working classes thought Corbyn's manifesto would be even worse.


The longest suicide note in history part 2.


Bye Bye Corbyn.

Moby

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

We supported the commitment to leave the EU in the 2017 election. It was a strong, moral position to take and gave people in the heartlands the feeling that although it would be tough on the wider party and membership who were pro-remain, we would implement what they voted for. That was decisive, and it went some way to masking some of the weak leadership.

In 2019, forced by the remainers within the party and the membership to back a second referendum whereby the choice would be between defacto remain and remain, we lost scores of people who felt betrayed that we'd gone back on our earlier position. Once we'd lost the argument on the most important aspect of our time, the lack of clarity in the leadership came to the fore too - people started questioning the manifesto policies in terms of our ability to deliver them and whether or not they were really going to make a positive impact on peoples lives. We responded by going even harder to the left, releasing ill considered single policies and providing no sense we'd learned any lessons about fiscal responsibility.

I blame both sides. The far left didn't realise their agenda wasn't actually as popular as they thought, and the centrists didn't realise that just backing remain and pretending nothing had happened was going to bite us.

I think we probably would have won if we had managed to cobble together a position whereby the leader was someone like Yvette Cooper, the position on Brexit was that we will deliver it but in such a way that protects jobs and the economy, and the domestic policies were far less ambitious, probably stopping at renationalisation rail franchises as they expired and instead choosing to give a message of certainty in stable politics and inviting investment back into the country. We chose none of those things, and hey presto, look where we are.

The real problem is a complete dearth of intellectualism in the left at the moment, compounded by these people thinking they are the intellectual ones and everyone else is wrong. You know what's going to happen next, it's as obvious as the car crash of the election, the Corbyn and McDonnell will stay on for a few weeks and oversee the recruitment process, recommended a successor which suits their politics, Momentum will retain such big numbers because their leadership will call to fight back and the NEC will be dominated by this type such they vote in the completely wrong successor and give us another run of these policies in 2024, at which point we'll get battered again. You might even have a split before then if the remaining centrists give up and try and work with the Lib Dems.

It's not a dearth of intellectualism.....what will happen is the same as every other battle within the Labour Party over the years.....one side accepts capitalism and wants to moderate its excesses.....Ramsey McDonald, Atlee, Wilson, Blair and the other side wants to overthrow capitalism and replace it with socialism....Benn, Corbyn. The moderates say Labour has to tack to the centre and build a base to win elections and you can only effect change if you are the Govmt. That battle was won by Kinnock during the Thatcher years and Blair was the result....the left said having a Labour Govm't which was dominated by Blair that took us into foreign wars etc was no better than having the tories in power so there was then a grassroots reaction that resulted in Corbyn; There is an argument that Corbyn at least changed the political weather in this country and raised issues which forced the tories to tack to the centre from the right and adopt Labour ideas. Do you think Johnson would be promising to spend so much dosh on the NHS if Corbyn hadn't been around? Remember the tories win most elections because they don't have any of this idealogical baggage. They work within the capitalist system as is. They want to 'conserve' this and the established centres of power and privilege within it such as the media and big business because this is their world and their rules. Labour can only win with a coalition of different interest groups, that means finding common ground between the metropolitan, socially and economically mobile people in the cities and the northerner who tends to be economically socialist but socially conservative, who tends to stay local and notices immigrants more especially when they compete with him for local resources. A Labour leader can only win elections by finding a way of coalescing these different values/groups into a constituency big enough to win.