Not looking good for expat pensioners after BREXIT !!

bostonerimus

nigelbb wrote: »

No, the only country that I have personal experience with pensions is France & UK state pensions are taxed in France.

That HMRC document clearly sys that the state pension (or National Insurance Retirement pension as they call it) is Non-Government & thus I believe normally with a Dual Taxation Treaty would be taxed overseas. Each DTT is bilateral & likely different so others may say that all UK pensions are taxed in the UK but it's certainly not true for France.

DT agreements all follow the same basic rubric. Usually state pensions and private pensions are taxable where the person is tax resident. It's only pensions from working for the Government that are still taxed by that same Government. So a UK expat living in Spain with UK state pension, a SIPP and a UK military pension would pay Spanish tax on the first two and UK tax on the military pension.

Malthusian

nigelbb wrote: »

It's not a question of subsidy it's a question of fairness. Pensioners who move to Australia or Thailand have always known that their pension will not be uprated on spurious grounds for grubby money saving reasons but that's a decision they made when deciding to retire there. People who retired to Spain or France or Italy could have been living there for 20 years & it would be quite disgraceful to freeze their pensions with little or no warning.

They've had 20 years of inflation-linked increases and consequently their pension will be frozen at a much higher level (around 75% higher) than the Australian's or Thai's UK State Pension. So they have much less to complain about than the Australian or Thai pensioner with a UK State Pension. The State giveth and the State taketh away again. Blessed be the name of the State.

The Australian or Thai pensioner with a 20-year-old UK State Pension also has very little to complain about, as you accurately illustrate, as they knew the rules.

Other countries don't give you any State Pension at all if you are above the means test, which would include a well-off person retiring abroad. Some systems are more generous than ours, ours is more generous than most.

bostonerimus

As Brexit was hardly contemplated years ago I don't think it's reasonable to expect UK expats to have factored it into their plans. As it is they don't know their situation and most of what they are asking for is the same as businesses, they want some certainty so they can plan appropriately. Of course the UK Government can change the rules on people, but remember if they screw the UK expats it will be just as easy for them to screw you too. Fighting for benefits and fair play for others is generally also protecting your own rights.

I have a very good friend who has lived in France for 32 years...ever since she graduated with me from college in the UK. She's basically given up on the UK and will be receiving her French citizenship soon. She has no financial interests in the UK and all Brexit has done is caused her a great deal of worry. She wrote this in an email to me the other day, "At this point I'd happily swap my UK nationality for French".

I've also been an expat/immigrant for over 30 years and right now I'll get UK state pension when I turn 67 as I have 35 years of Class 2 NI contributions. I figure over that 35 years I've paid just £5k in total NI contributions, now that's me getting a really good deal from the UK pax payer. I expect this benefit to disappear at some point, but I'll love to see all the protests if any Government goes back on the promise to pay the flat rate pension to people with 35 years of contributions that were made perfectly correctly and accepted under the Governments own rules. Still, it is a stupidly good deal for Class 2 NI payers.

For many years I did plan on returning to the UK to be closer to family, but if the UK continues to be what I consider to be mean spirited and xenophobic then I will not move back As a US immigrant the only Brexit issue I have is the exchange rate on my UK state pension, but that's far in the future so maybe the UK pound will be going gang busters by the 2030s........Of course I live in Trumpland and for me that's not ideal so I'm making a getway plan and my easiest option seems to be to move to Ireland as even with Brexit a UK citizen can move to Ireland without a visa, but that might well change. We all just need to know the rules and that's the worst thing that Brexit has done, the rules are unknown.

Malthusian

bostonerimus wrote: »

As Brexit was hardly contemplated years ago I don't think it's reasonable to expect UK expats to have factored it into their plans.

I don't. When planning you can only work with the rules as they stand, and then stay on your toes.

If your finances rely on a state benefit received from a foreign country then you have to be prepared for the possibility that this country changes the rules. This doesn't mean that a recently retired person considering emigrating in 1999 should not have moved to France. That would be absurd. It was the correct decision at the time and stayed that way for 20 years.

It does however mean they needed to be prepared to move away from France if the foreign government changes the rules, with the result that they become unable to afford the cost of living in France.

If they drew their State Pension 20 years ago then it is unlikely that inflation will erode their spending power in France to the point they are forced to move back to the UK (to restore inflation linking) or another country with a lower cost of living. They will probably run out of lifespan before they run out of money. Or fall on the tender mercy of the care system of wherever they happen to be at the time.

FWIW, my personal opinion is that the Government should keep inflation linking for the EU. If we drop it we will probably just end up restoring it anyway when reciprocal agreements are replaced. And I agree with others that if we drop it, the risk is that expats will move back here, which means significant extra costs for the NHS and care system, whereas the cost of inflation linking is relatively trivial. I am playing devil's advocate mainly to illustrate why there's no point in people burying their heads in the sand about the possibility they remove it, even though it's a daft thing for the Government to do.

As it is they don't know their situation and most of what they are asking for is the same as businesses, they want some certainty so they can plan appropriately.

They can ask for a magic unicorn to predict the future for them if they like, but every Government in the world has always tinkered with the tax and benefit system and always will.

You shouldn't ask somebody to provide something they're inherently incapable of providing. The worst case scenario is that they say "yes" and then you will be unpleasantly surprised later when they renege.

Andy_L

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Many do already. Old age catches up with us all.

bloody health tourists, coming over here & clogging up our NHS

spadoosh

bostonerimus wrote: »

As Brexit was hardly contemplated years ago I don't think it's reasonable to expect UK expats to have factored it into their plans. As it is they don't know their situation and most of what they are asking for is the same as businesses, they want some certainty so they can plan appropriately. Of course the UK Government can change the rules on people, but remember if they screw the UK expats it will be just as easy for them to screw you too. Fighting for benefits and fair play for others is generally also protecting your own rights.

I have a very good friend who has lived in France for 32 years...ever since she graduated with me from college in the UK. She's basically given up on the UK and will be receiving her French citizenship soon. She has no financial interests in the UK and all Brexit has done is caused her a great deal of worry. She wrote this in an email to me the other day, "At this point I'd happily swap my UK nationality for French".

I've also been an expat/immigrant for over 30 years and right now I'll get UK state pension when I turn 67 as I have 35 years of Class 2 NI contributions. I figure over that 35 years I've paid just £5k in total NI contributions, now that's me getting a really good deal from the UK pax payer. I expect this benefit to disappear at some point, but I'll love to see all the protests if any Government goes back on the promise to pay the flat rate pension to people with 35 years of contributions that were made perfectly correctly and accepted under the Governments own rules. Still, it is a stupidly good deal for Class 2 NI payers.

For many years I did plan on returning to the UK to be closer to family, but if the UK continues to be what I consider to be mean spirited and xenophobic then I will not move back As a US immigrant the only Brexit issue I have is the exchange rate on my UK state pension, but that's far in the future so maybe the UK pound will be going gang busters by the 2030s........Of course I live in Trumpland and for me that's not ideal so I'm making a getway plan and my easiest option seems to be to move to Ireland as even with Brexit a UK citizen can move to Ireland without a visa, but that might well change. We all just need to know the rules and that's the worst thing that Brexit has done, the rules are unknown.

Its the government, they take from Peter to pay Paul. Peter always loses and Paul always wins. Peter is the person that didnt vote for that given government, and paul is the person that voted for that government.

I know a few people who live in Spain, theyre all very anti brexit. Probably because theyre domicile in Spain whilst making their livings from incomes derived through Gibraltar.

I only know of 3 types of expat.

1. The working brit.... aka Jimmy Nail.
2. The retired brit ..... made a load of money through economic fortune (property price rises and gold plated pensions) generally found on a mobility scooter in marbella. AKA Madge Harvey
3. The whimsical aristocratic brit. Has an auror of being well off although will always look like theyre homeless. You know the kind, can recount the children of every British monarch and has expert knowledge of the local lichens but finds it impossible to make an appointment on time or thinks things like road signs are an unnecessary nuisance. AKA Brian blessed/stephen fry

Im going to say UKpoker is no 2 and youre number 3.


Either way im 32, and right now im finding it impossible to calculate how the government is planning on paying me the state pension im getting promised. I think its about £7.6tn (and somethign like 95% unfunded) and rising for the pension liabilities of everyone alive in the UK right now (it was about £5 trillion only a few years ago). So whilst i have sympathies for those who are losing out on their pension incomes, i cant help but think that at least youre getting one.

Sorry just wanted to point out the elephant in the room.

nigelbb

The pensions being paid out now are dependent on all those millions of young EU workers paying income tax & VAT while receiving little in return.

spadoosh

nigelbb wrote: »

The pensions being paid out now are dependent on all those millions of young EU workers paying income tax & VAT while receiving little in return.

Thats true of anyone in the prime of their working life. Its a bell curve, you start life youre very dependent on the state (your mum) then you leave your mums and make some money where the state come knocking telling you to pay up. Then you stop working and the state top up your earnings for being a good little worker so they can say they did their bit in keeping you alive for as long as possible.

Gin_and_Milk

It isn't good news for many people at the moment, as the entire population of the UK don't know where we stand.

I'm 44 and I am making plans for retiring early and because I am erring on the side of caution, at no point whatsoever have I factored in the state pension, because I've always assumed that at some point it will be means tested and/or the SPA will rise.

If the findings of a recent think tank are anything to go by, it may well be the case that my SPA will rise to 70, my brother (who is an electrician) may well have to work until he is 75.

I have lived and worked in the UK all my life - and you're cheesed off about your pension? I'm sorry for sounding harsh, but if the pension age does rise (and it will at some point), then there will be millions of people in this country who, through no fault of their own, really will struggle to retire full stop, never mind retire in a country of their choice.

As for the point made earlier about how leaving the EU wasn't around earlier, the fact remains that for at least 20 years, people have been asking for a referendum on EU membership. The question was never going to go away IMO.

bostonerimus

nigelbb wrote: »

Please read my previous posts so I don't have to explain for the third time that making uprating of pensions for overseas pensioners dependent on "social security agreements" is entirely bogus & merely used as an excuse for the UK government to save £400million.

I agree. The UK Government could easily treat all UK pensioners the same wherever they live, but it chooses not to. Reciprocal Social Security Agreements are red herrings in this issue.

The unfairness is ridiculous. Take someone who has worked in the UK all their life and has paid Class 1 NI at a rate of 12% of earnings and who the retires to Australia. They might have paid 100k over their lifetime of work and a similar amount will have been paid by their employer and they will get around 8.5k/year state pension frozen for life. Now compare that to me living in the USA and having paid 35 years of Class 2 NI. This has cost me a total of about 5k ( so 40 times less than for the UK worker) and I get the same pension as the UK worker, but index linked. So for 5k in contributions I get an index liked lifetime pension of 8.5k/year. Where's the sense in that?