Not looking good for expat pensioners after BREXIT !!

[Deleted User]

If they are no longer UK tax resident they are now paying into a different system and will get what that system gives them.

Not how it works. Every country (including UK) pays state pension pro rata - only for the years spent in that country.

angelsmomma

lisyloo wrote: »

I feel brexit has generated a huge amount of uncertainty and harm and to a degree I sympathise to a degree.
However why do you think expats should be prioritised over UK residents e.g. workers, in the guarantees they get?
Don’t expect huge amounts of sympathy as this is affecting everyone and I don’t think expats who’ve left the country should be considered a priority over others who live here and contribute here, yes you contributed in the past but you chose to leave.

I still contribute as I am a landlord who pays ever increasing tax due to the allowances available changing and the new rules on tenants fees being reduced but passed on to the landlord by managing agents. However I do agree that once you move abroad then its something you either accept or just move back. My pension is due in 3 years and I will just defer it so that its not frozen then claim it when I return.

bostonerimus

Deleted_User wrote: »

Not how it works. Every country (including UK) pays state pension pro rata - only for the years spent in that country.

I’ve never paid income tax or paid NI when I lived in the U.K. because I was at university and left for the US after I finished my PhD. I have only paid 5k in Class 2 NI contributions, but have 35 years of NI and I’ve now stopped paying. Under the current rules I will receive the full index linked state pension when I am 67. So for the U.K. years spent in the U.K. is irrelevant to the pension, what matters is your NI record.

But right now the payment of UK state pension to UK expats in Spain isn't the issue as Brexit doesn't have to change that, other than maybe the practicalities of banking. The issue is with residency regulations, immigration issues and reciprocal healthcare agreements.

[Deleted User]

Fair enough, the British system is screwed up in more way than one. Obviously an amazingly awesome deal for people who do what you describe and go to the US.

Malthusian

Deleted_User wrote: »

The government has stated that NICs are used to build up State Pension.

Regardless of how the system for qualifying for your own personal State Pension works, NICs are used to pay State Pension of people who are already retired and other Government expenditure.

Anyone relying on state benefits to meet their needs is in an inherently precarious position. Anyone relying on state benefits paid by another country is in an even more precarious position as the state paying them has less reason to worry about them dying in the street if they cut them.

"I paid into the system for x-ty years" (all of which was spent by their motherland years ago) may feel good but from a financial planning perspective is useless. It won't make their financial position more secure or alter future Government policy.

This is why Thai people who receive UK state benefits don't get inflation-linking, because a) the Thais haven't given us a quid pro quo and b) post-working-age people in Thailand who have too little income to live on are the Thai welfare state's problem, unless they exercise a right to move back here.

Not how it works. Every country (including UK) pays state pension pro rata - only for the years spent in that country.

Every country has a different system. Some pay no state pension at all if the citizen has their own resources.

lisyloo

angelsmomma wrote: »

I still contribute as I am a landlord who pays ever increasing tax due to the allowances available changing and the new rules on tenants fees being reduced but passed on to the landlord by managing agents. However I do agree that once you move abroad then its something you either accept or just move back. My pension is due in 3 years and I will just defer it so that its not frozen then claim it when I return.

Good point that some are still contributing.
You are still not top of my list for sympathy, sorry :-)

JezR

A little bit of history for anyone who might be interested.

When a more universal state pension contributory benefit was introduced in 1946, it was only automatically payable to people if they lived in the UK. If you lived in a British possession or dominion it was necessary to apply directly to the Minster of National Insurance to have it paid there, and it was paid at the rate in force when the person left (this could take up to 6 months). No pension could be paid by law to a person resident in a foreign country.

The first concession was to continue paying people resident in Ireland, after that country left the Commonwealth.

bostonerimus

Malthusian wrote: »

Anyone relying on state benefits to meet their needs is in an inherently precarious position. Anyone relying on state benefits paid by another country is in an even more precarious position as the state paying them has less reason to worry about them dying in the street if they cut them.

I think this is a sad statement and might say a lot about the breakdown of thrust between political institutions and the people. There was a time when promises made by governments about social insurance and pensions were generally trusted. There might be some small tweaks to the benefits, but the social contract that promised a benefit for a lifetime of paying tax was pretty much a given. Thatcher saying that "there is no such thing as society" in the context of benefits might have been the start of the rift.

If people working today and paying NI cannot rely on getting the state pension then there will be a lot of very poor retirees in the future or people will simply have to work until they die. The UK will look like a Dickens novel again.

Malthusian

bostonerimus wrote: »

There was a time when promises made by governments about social insurance and pensions were generally trusted.

There was also a time when people believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth and that it was good to set old ladies on fire if a guy in a silly frock gibbered at them in Latin. Alas for this halcyon era when people were more trusting and it was possible to raise the dead and science hadn't de-gnomed the mine. We got better.

In reality the State giveth and the State taketh away again and always has done.

There might be some small tweaks to the benefits, but the social contract that promised a benefit for a lifetime of paying tax was pretty much a given.

The idea that the State will keep everyone not just alive but in a dignified existence is a relative novelty which has only existed for a few decades, i.e. since World War II and Nye Bevan.

Thatcher saying that "there is no such thing as society" in the context of benefits might have been the start of the rift.

Thatcher said no such thing in the context of benefits.

The context of Thatcher's famous quote was that she was debunking the proposition of an interviewer that a more prosperous society was a more greedy and selfish one. Thatcher correctly outlined how the opposite is true.

Interviewer: When I first interviewed you six or seven years ago you used almost the same words. Government statistics show divorce rate under 35 is nearly 50%, abortions have nearly doubled. We seem to have more violence, we have the yuppies of the City sort of violent with money. We have competition and free enterprise and it seems somehow to go together with greed.

Thatcher: No, it does not go with greed at all. Most of us work so that our children can have a better life than we do. Most of us work so that if grandma needs help we can have something in our pockets ready to help or to give them a treat they might not otherwise have. I remember going round a housing association for older folk and going into a room. It looked absolutely lovely and I said: “Oh!” and she said: “Look! I have got fitted carpets throughout my small flat!” She said: “My son is doing very well. He treated me to them!” Another said: “My son is doing very well. He paid for me to go overseas! Aren't I lucky” they said “to have such good families!”

Now, they could not have done it unless they had worked hard for a higher salary and, yes, for money. There is nothing wrong with doing that. That is the great driving engine, the driving force of life. There is nothing wrong with having a lot more money. [snip]

...I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing!

bostonerimus wrote:

If people working today and paying NI cannot rely on getting the state pension then there will be a lot of very poor retirees in the future or people will simply have to work until they die. The UK will look like a Dickens novel again.

There is no prospect whatsoever of the State Pension being removed in the UK. That would require the economy to massively permanently contract a la Mugabe-era Zimbabwe, in which case everyone will be dirt poor (not by current standards, but by objective standards) and this conversation will be moot. If the UK does not enter a Dark Age it is more likely that it will be expanded and called Universal Basic Income.

Sunnylifeover50plan

Afternoon - might be a simple question to answer linked to the main thread title. We are considering a move to Spain, likely to be for at least 5 years.
I am 50 and my wife 53 at this time - she has fully paid for her UK state pension and I am 4 years short.
We have both looked on the Govt. website for projected state pension and my question is...if we move abroad, given we aren't claiming state pensions and won't for a number of years, will our projected pension amounts be uplifted in the same way as UK domiciled folk who are yet to be in receipt.
Secondary question will I be able to top my state pension up with the cheaper class 2 NI stamp for my 3.5 years shortfall and if so any idea on how much this might cost?
thanks