Electric vehicles miles per KWh

Martyn1981

ABrass wrote: »

The idea of taxing electricity is clearly not going to work. How do you do that for Electric cars but not electric heating?

The simpler, and more likely, approach will be road tax. Even there whilst the cost for electric cars will probably go up, ICE vehicles will skyrocket.

Yep, given the need to switch so much of our infrastructure over to leccy, I can't see tax revenue being made up there. Though of course the tax revenue will have to come from somewhere, but hopefully lower emissions etc, will save us a bit of health spending.

JKenH

ABrass wrote: »

The idea of taxing electricity is clearly not going to work. How do you do that for Electric cars but not electric heating?

The simpler, and more likely, approach will be road tax. Even there whilst the cost for electric cars will probably go up, ICE vehicles will skyrocket.

You never can tell what will happen with politicians. It was only a few years ago that we were being encouraged by taxing CO2 emissions to move to diesels. The only thing you can be sure of is someone will have to pay more tax. I’m not sure the cost of running the NHS has come down much since Maggie shut down the coal mines so I doubt if we will see a green health dividend anytime soon from taking ICEs off the road.

Motorists are a huge cash cow for governments so I see taxes staying in the sector. One option a government might consider is to levy a tax on rapid chargers even if it is only upping the VAT rate to 20%. Not for a while yet but by say 2025 or 2030 once there are significant numbers of EVs on the road and secondhand ICE cars are owned predominantly by the less well off it may only take a campaign claiming taxing ICEs heavily is regressive to swing opinion and policy.

Also road pricing is another option that has been talked about for decades.

ASavvyBuyer

JKenH wrote: »

Motorists are a huge cash cow for governments so I see taxes staying in the sector. One option a government might consider is to levy a tax on rapid chargers even if it is only upping the VAT rate to 20%.

The VAT rate on charges for electricity from public chargers (Rapid & Fast) is already at 20%.

Reed_Richards

JKenH wrote: »

You never can tell what will happen with politicians. It was only a few years ago that we were being encouraged by taxing CO2 emissions to move to diesels.

I used to drive a car that described itself as an "Eco Diesel". And when I bought it it looked as if it was, better MPG so lower CO2 emissions. I really don't think it was known then how bad the particulate emissions from diesels were for your health. But that is surely a failure of science and not politics?

1961Nick

JKenH wrote: »

You never can tell what will happen with politicians. It was only a few years ago that we were being encouraged by taxing CO2 emissions to move to diesels. The only thing you can be sure of is someone will have to pay more tax. I’m not sure the cost of running the NHS has come down much since Maggie shut down the coal mines so I doubt if we will see a green health dividend anytime soon from taking ICEs off the road.

Motorists are a huge cash cow for governments so I see taxes staying in the sector. One option a government might consider is to levy a tax on rapid chargers even if it is only upping the VAT rate to 20%. Not for a while yet but by say 2025 or 2030 once there are significant numbers of EVs on the road and secondhand ICE cars are owned predominantly by the less well off it may only take a campaign claiming taxing ICEs heavily is regressive to swing opinion and policy.

Also road pricing is another option that has been talked about for decades.

There will be a honeymoon period & then the taxes will be introduced. It’ll start with VED based on list price & ultimately end up with road pricing as well. They will encourage vehicles to be connected so they can roll out smart road pricing ... including so many miles in VED & charging for the excess etc. The price for opting out of smart pricing will be punitive VED rates & charges for using motorways - existing ANPR can already acquire the necessary data for billing.

JKenH

ASavvyBuyer wrote: »

The VAT rate on charges for electricity from public chargers (Rapid & Fast) is already at 20%.

Thanks for clarifying that. My bad.

Ken

Solarchaser

So if we take 4 miles /kwh as average... which it seems to be, and average leccy at 14p/kwh then drive ing a normally home charged car would be a little less than 4p/mile as you said Jkenh.

I cant comment on all of England or any of Wales, but in almost all of Scotland the fast chargers are free, so 0p/mile. But the rapid chargers tend to be around 30-35p /kwh so say 8p/mile.
The rapid chargers on the English motorways are the same 30-35p/kwh.
There are indeed some networks which charge a connection charge, like polar.... who are best avoided if possible, but there are also lidl rapid chargers which are free.

So if you need to completely refuel your petrol / deisel you are spending say 5-10 mins at petrol station, for an ev it's around 20mins.

I'd expect the road fund licence to be increased over time to make up the tax, and I'd imagine it to be mileage based, and perhaps selling a car would come with a mandatory requirement for mileage verification.

The company car as a middle class thing is a bit of a strange take.
I have a company car, have done for most of my working life, however I'd never be classed as middle class.
I dont use the company car privately because the p11d value is almost double what I'm paying for the EV, so it's not cost effective to use it.

I'm not sure how solar could be seen as middle class either, surely most of the middle class wouldn't want the solar panels spoiling their roofs.

I've also heard of social housing having proper solar arrays, (not the token 2 or 3 panels you see on new builds) and thought it would be a great way for the government to help meet the 2050 targets, by installing solar on all council houses, reducing the potential for fuel poverty and helping out the grid.

JKenH

Solarchaser wrote: »

The company car as a middle class thing is a bit of a strange take.
I have a company car, have done for most of my working life, however I'd never be classed as middle class.

I'm not sure how solar could be seen as middle class either, surely most of the middle class wouldn't want the solar panels spoiling their roofs.

“We’re all middle class now”John Prescott 1997

I was being lazy, it’s just easier to refer to middle class than members of socio-economic group C1 or B which is what I really was trying to get across.

With the cars, what I was implying is that most people with company cars will have reasonable paying jobs (probably above average wage for their age group). How we describe ourselves depends on how we want people to see us. I think a few MPs describe themselves as working class.

Solar panels are a strange mix. There are people in our village who have solar panels in an ex council house and no car and a very wealthy guy who owns multiple businesses and a football club who uses his solar panels primarily to heat his jacuzzi. No, that doesn’t per se make him middle class but he is not C, D or E. Some panels will be on rent a roof schemes so probably not candidates for a BEV so probably not middle class (I am treading on dangerous ground here). A combination of solar panels and BEV owned by householders suggest above average income/wealth which might suggest to some middle class (although I accept they may be wrong).

It’s not really an issue of what class someone is in (if indeed class exists anymore) but rather whether an argument can be made for political advantage that owners of BEVs are wealthy and owners of secondhand ICE cars are disadvantaged. It’s just politics.

I wasn’t trying to be judgemental or classist, just making a point that owners and drivers of BEVs may at some time in the future find themselves in the firing line for tax increases.

Edit: I should have included C1, B and A groups in my arbitrary definition of middle class

ABrass

I agree that VED will go up on EVs, and the £3.5k incentive will go as well. The only question is really when it happens and how fast.

Will it be after the point where EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles or will they jump the gun a bit as they did for solar panels.

Fwiw the BIK numbers should take us through to 2023, by which time EVs should be price competitive and the supply should have ramped up a lot more.

Solarchaser

Well I kinda see what you are saying.
I guess it's how you view company cars... or perhaps I should have said company vehicles.

One of my mates has a company vehicle, as he calls it, a 2 seater Mercedes..... it's a sprinter van.

I guess alot of people imagine 7 series BMW or fancy jag as company car. And you would imagine from that, middle class, whereas most of my company cars have been company Van's... though cards on the table the current one is a c class merc.

I live in an ex council house in a pretty rough scheme, so I cant ever see me being middle class. I do however have a second hand EV and solar.

I guess I need to read up on socio economic classes, never seen these terms you mentioned.