Saba Parking PCN notice served at Railway Station

thescot82

Hi all,

First time poster so go easy on me. Also, as a first time poster, I'm not allowed to share any links as I had hoped to include some pictures and screengrabs I've taken.

Place
- Leighton Buzzard railway station
- Leighton Buzzard has two public car parks operated by Saba Parking. I believe the main car park is on railway property and the other newly opened car park is on private land.
- The new car park is opened about one to two months now.
- These car parks are named (as per the Saba Parking app):
WMT Leighton Buzzard Station Car Park - address is Station Approach
Saba Leighton Buzzard Station Car Park 2 - address is 14 Station Road

Ownership
From reading the forums, I'm trying to ascertain if I'm the registered keeper. I think I am. Basically I'm on a personal leasing / PCP type contract where I pay for the car on a monthly basis from the manufacturer.

Signage
- Saba Leighton Buzzard Station Car Park 2 is very clearly signed, with appropriate signage stating Car Park 2 and Private Land. I would share a photo but can't as a first time poster.
- The main station car park, does not reference what car park it is. Common sense would suggest it's the main car park naturally. There is however standard signage relating to tariffs and fines, and operated by Saba Parking etc. And certainly not clear with regards to what car park this is in reference to or with any clear lettering etc.
- Within the Saba app, the locations of these car parks are reversed ie. Main car park is where Car Park 2 is, and Car Park 2 is where Main car park is.


Issue / Timeline
Hopefully you can see where this is going.

- June 4th; I pay for a weekly ticket as normal via the Saba Parking app with confirmation email receipt received immediately.
- June 6th; I park, as normal in the main car park, and find I have been served a PCN (via car windscreen) for 'Failing to display a valid ticket or voucher' and therefore breaching the terms of conditions of entering the car park.
- June 9th; Decide to appeal and log online to appeal via Saba's internal appeals process. I provided proof of receipt that I have paid for a parking ticket.
- June 17th; Receive email letter/PDF back from Saba saying that the PCN will be upheld.

Having read the newbies forum, it suggests was a rookie mistake and perhaps I should have included more detail (such as lack of signage). Also, unfortunately I can't remember if within this process whether it asked if I was the registered keeper or driver, and/or whether it asked for my personal details such as address. If it did, I invariably provided although I note that the email letter did not include my address so I'm hoping I haven't.

First appeal rejection
Here is a transcript of the letter from Saba stating that the PCN will be upheld:
'having reviewing the photographic evidence which you will find attached, the vehicle has been parked within the grounds without displaying a valid ticket and upon searching their PDA, the Parking Attendant has also been unable to locate a valid e-ticket and therefore this notice was issued.

There is signage providing the tariffs. There are numerous ways to pay for parking which are advertised on signage. There is also contact numbers for Saba where a member of staff would be able to advise of payment options available.

By entering and parking within the grounds, the driver is agreeing to park in accordance with the Terms of the Railway Byelaws and it is the customer's responsibility to ensure they observe the Terms of the Railway Byelaws before leaving their vehicle. It is clearly stated within the Terms of the Railway Byelaws that a Penalty Notice will be issued if observed not parked in accordance to the terms.

Although I have noted the points in your appeal, your appeal has been rejected for being parked in the wrong location to which you purchased your ticket for, I can see that you purchased your ticket for Leighton Buzzard Car Park 2 but were parked in Leighton Buzzard Station Car Park. As it is the customer's responsibility to check all email confirmation that payment has been made correctly and that details we have are correct to avoid any parking issues. If for any reason a problem is occurred during making payment customers can call...............

From here the letter goes on to state that the reduced rate of £60 is payable within 14 days of the date of letter. I can no longer appeal via Saba Parking. The letter states that if I remain dissatisfied I can appeal further via the Independent Appeals Service (asparking.co.uk) within 28 days of this notice of rejection. If I lose, I will not be able to pay the penalty at the reduced rate.

Strangely, the letter states 'By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution services. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to the appeals service, as explained above.'

I appreciate it's law to inform the customer, but why tell me that there is a service for dispute if they acknowledge they won't respect it!

Next steps
Ordinarily I would pay the fine as typically I receive them when I have forgotten to pay. That said, in this instance I'm furious as I have paid albeit for the wrong car park. So from what I've read so far, and in my opinion there's a number of factors at play:
1) Lack for clear outside signage and naming of the main car park.
2) Confusion within the app as to what car park should be paid for.
3) The main car park is subject to Railway byelaws and is not considered private land (such as Car Park 2)

As I understand it, I should try to drag the appeals process out for as long as possible. As I've had my first appeal rejected, I'm not sure if I should wait for them to pursue via letter but then I'm not sure if I provided by home address of not, or whether they can obtain via the DVLA (other posts are unclear on this matter, but I suspect they can).

If I'm to pay the fine with 14 days of June 17th, that gives me until July 1st.

As such, to string out further, I should lodge an independent appeal via asparking.co.uk by say June 28th. Would this make sense? And what would you good folk on here suggest?

I hope I've included all the relevant details. Any feedback / recommendations would be greatly welcome.

From
The Angry Scot

waamo

Cutting the the masses of irrelevant background this boils down to a byelaws ticket.

The best plan of action is to now play mail ping pong with them. Ask them a series of pointless questions for the next 6 months. Questions like why isn't POPLA available? Who is responsible the owner, keeper or driver? Can you pass it on to the responsible person?

Ask very slowly to string it out. Make them clarify points that are unclear.

Byelaws offences time out after 6 months so a few mails will do it.

Do not under any circumstances reveal who was driving.

Coupon-mad

Yep, simple answer is to keep them busy replying to queries, a SAR and then info based on the PAP for Debt claims, then finally tell them near the end of the 6 months that you deny any debt but are 'seeking debt advice'.

Should get you over the line as long as you don't reply immediately to any letter.

Redx

if your name is on the V5C then you are the RK, if its not then you are not the RK, its that simple


the ping pong option for a 6 month time out seems best, if bylaws apply

Half_way

Under no circumstances should you give any hint as to the driver, no I did this, or She did that

thescot82

Apologies, but thought more information then better.

Appreciate this boils down to breach of byelaws, however technically they could claim that I haven’t paid for a ticket. So this is a fundamental breach, or you could argue that no contract was agreed as I understand payment constitutes agreeing to contract.

Despite paying for a ticket albeit the new car park, could I use inadequate signage as a basis of confusion between actual car park and those listed within the Saba app?

Coupon-mad

You are not appealing, you are stringing them along, as I said:

keep them busy replying to queries, a SAR and then info based on the PAP for Debt claims, then finally tell them near the end of the 6 months that you deny any debt but are 'seeking debt advice'.

So there is no need to think about what to say re 'confusion'. That sounds like an appeal.

Say whatever you like, but eke it out past six months!

Woppyman72

This is all bluster and stringing it along is your best option, and you are reasonably well protected here from any Byelaw action, why?

1) Railway Byelaws state that the person in charge of the vehicle commits an offence....but there is no evidence who was in charge (unless you tell them of course!)

2) The owner may be held liable.....but you are not the legal owner either are you. The finance company is.

So you are in a strong position to string along with a bunch of questions that make it look like you are genuinely asking questions when in fact you are just trying to get across the 6 month period.
Safe in the knowledge it is extremely unlikely you can ever be held liable.

Just done this myself, not as hard as it sounds. Just remember not to identify the driver and that includes appealing through ASParking, I am very suspicious of them and avoided appealing through this avenue.

Good luck.:p

waamo

thescot82 wrote: »

Apologies, but thought more information then better.

Appreciate this boils down to breach of byelaws, however technically they could claim that I haven’t paid for a ticket. So this is a fundamental breach, or you could argue that no contract was agreed as I understand payment constitutes agreeing to contract.

Despite paying for a ticket albeit the new car park, could I use inadequate signage as a basis of confusion between actual car park and those listed within the Saba app?

They say it's a byelaws ticket so it's a byelaws ticket. Stop overthinking it.

Handbags-at-dawn

This really shows this appalling, greedy company in its true colours. They agree you've made an honest mistake, no loss to them, but still insist you pay their home-made unenforceable penalty. Next you'll be getting a series of increasingly nasty letters from their debt collectors. As advised, you'll have to play letter ping-pong for a few months, but you shouldn't be put through it. It's completely unacceptable.

I guess you have already disclosed who was driving, so letters to the CEO of London Northwestern (Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde) and to your MP might be a good idea.

Coupon-mad

I can see that you purchased your ticket for Leighton Buzzard Car Park 2 but were parked in Leighton Buzzard Station Car Park.

Can't see that standing up as a case the TOC would want to try in court, and SABA can't. Keep them busy with a SAR, etc., as advised.