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Complicated Probate case... sigh

edited 14 June 2019 at 4:05PM in Deaths, Funerals & Probate
127 replies 7.8K views
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  • edited 16 June 2019 at 7:26AM
    Tom99Tom99 Forumite
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    edited 16 June 2019 at 7:26AM
    Adams18 wrote: »
    I would appreciate any advise on probate if anyone has done it... in terms of what to state on the forms? A poster mentioned 25% on trust with 80k Debt.. and state the value of the property at the time of death?
    The forms are pretty straight forward so I would do it yourself. The biggest problem is arriving at the market value of your father's share in the house. Do your have an RICS valuation as at the date of death.

    I assume the asset side would be something like this:
    Open Market Value £500k x 25% share = £125k
    But your mother has a life interest in this 25% as well as owning outright her 75%, so the £125k should be deferred.
    If you take age 84 as your mothers life expectancy, see here to back up your claim:
    http://www.riskprediction.org.uk/index_lifeexp.php
    And a deferment interest rate of say 5%, then defer the £125k for 30yrs at 5%:
    (£500k/4)/(1.05^30)=£28,922 call it £29,000.

    There may be some guidance in one of the Valuation Office Manuals about how to value property subject to a life interest but I can't find it at the moment.

    Then on the debt side its more straight forward £80k/4=£20k
    So you father would have a net estate of c £9k

    But remember:
    All figures must be as at date of death, that includes the full market value of house, mortgage outstanding.
    There will be other adjustments, cost of funeral to deduct, cash assets to add etc.
  • Manxman_in_exileManxman_in_exile Forumite
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    Sensitive question, but I'll ask anyway.


    When your mum dies, who is likely to benefit from her estate? Are you an only child or are there siblings? Or any other dependents?


    Has she made a will?


    Apologies if these have already been answered, but worth considering if you don't want to lose the house to pay other bequests etc.
  • xylophonexylophone Forumite
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    The property was originally occupied by the deceased, his wife and the OP.

    The deceased took out an interest only mortgage on the property in his sole name.

    The mortgage loan was for £80,000.

    The deceased divorced his wife - the divorce settlement gave the deceased a 25% interest in the property but he could not realise his interest until the ex wife died or remarried.

    The deceased did not remarry but lived with a partner for a number of years.


    It appears that the interest only payments have been met by the OP/his mother for the last 20+ years - he has not advised the mortgagee of his father's death - it is unclear whether the mortgagee ever knew that it was the OP/his mother who was making the interest payments.


    The deceased died intestate with assets of a few thousand, a liability of £80,000 and a right to 25% of the value of the property on the death or remarriage of the ex wife.

    The deceased had only one child (the OP)- the OP inherits under the intestacy rules.

    The OP therefore inherits a few thousand, the debt and the right to £25,000 on the death or remarriage of his mother.

    The deceased's partner was not financially dependent on him but she has nevertheless made a claim on his estate.

    It is unclear whether or not she would be awarded any provision in view of the fact that she was not financially dependent - ( also the fact that the deceased had not contributed to the maintenance of the property or made any interest payments for at least twenty years might be taken into account).

    On death, the deceased had assets of "a few thousand" and a liability for £80,000.

    If we assumed the "few thousand" was say £5000, then the estate still has a liability of £75,000 to be set against the value of the 25% of the property.

    Under these circumstances, I can't see why the OP would not settle his father's liability and either let the partner bring the claim (which she might not win) against what seems to be a net estate of around £50,000,or negotiate an amount in "full and final settlement" with the partner?
  • getmore4lessgetmore4less Forumite
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    The op has made it clear the 25% is AFTER the debt is repaid.
  • Adams18Adams18 Forumite
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    It's your dad's 25% at date of death,

    You then need to add what all his assets were ie bank accounts/ savings etc

    Less debts / mortgage / funeral costs

    = the value of his estate.

    But my solicitor said that really the 25% has no nominal value right now...

    So do I just use 25% market value as a best guess? Is that how people list shares in property?
  • Adams18Adams18 Forumite
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    The op has made it clear the 25% is AFTER the debt is repaid.

    Yeah exactly... it is redeemed before the 25% even materialises.

    So then apart from the few thousand he had in his account, it's just 25% share on a life interest of life expectancy for my mother who is 54. Don't know how to list that in a probate form.
  • Adams18Adams18 Forumite
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    Savvy_Sue wrote: »
    [STRIKE]Can I please check one VITAL detail.

    You refer to your late father's 'partner'. At one point she claimed to be his wife. WERE THEY IN FACT MARRIED?

    Because if they were, that may change the situation.[/STRIKE]

    OK, read the 'other' thread. You're sure they weren't married, so it's a claim under the dependency act. You're right, your father could have married her, or left a will. But I can understand her feeling 'entitled', they were together for a substantial chunk of time. I'm not saying she is ...

    Yeah I fully respect... and expect what she is doing... thats why I am the least angry out of everyone that knows about my situation and my mom.. because she is trying to get what she can when my father left her with no provisions.;.... Maybe even made promises and took advantage of her.

    Happens all the time in this country with bringing a non english speaking person, getting a sham marriage and not getting it registered.

    At the same time, I've got to fight for what I believe is rightfully mine, given how much Ive bent over backwards to upkeep this house when my father didnt pay a penny.
  • Adams18Adams18 Forumite
    109 posts
    What did the divorce settlement say about who pays the interest on the mortgage?


    Thats a good question, some papers might have got lost in the sand of time with my mom as these date back to 1998... it's possible that my mom was being responsible for those payment as she was paying them... but more accurately she was receiving DSS/benefits to pay the monthly interest component following divorce proceedings and father leaving the property.

    Then when I started working, they stopped that based on the household income etc.. and I started paying it.
  • Sea_ShellSea_Shell Forumite
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    Which was the "sham" marriage???
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow ":beer: JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!! :j:j:j
  • Adams18Adams18 Forumite
    109 posts
    Sea_Shell wrote: »
    Just thinking ahead for the future, assuming this all gets sorted favourably.

    How old is your Mum and is she in good health? How old are you? You seem very young if you only started work 6 years ago.

    Can your Mum afford the upkeep of the house on her own? Is she allowed to sell the property?

    If you've ploughed £80k into your Mum's house and you can't release your 25% unless a trigger event occurs how do you propose to live an independent life once you eventually move out with or without a partner of your own?

    Do you have other savings? You won't qualify as a first time buyer if you did want to buy.

    Just thinking out loud.

    All the points you've made are constantly on my mind, that why I am so stressed in this situation.

    I am 30, unmarried. My mom is retired on benefits, health is not good, full rate disability. She doesn't get as much from benefits as the claimant does, for some reason.The 80K was saved jointly with me and my mom.

    I have 40K seperate savings for myself.

    how do you propose to live an independent life once you eventually move out with or without a partner of your own?

    I have no clue, I've certainly thought about it several times, but what can I do? This house means a lot to me, but it means even more to my mom. I'll have to sacrifice the idea of living an independent life and just continue to support my mom. It's not my fault I've ended up in this situation, my father has a track record of doing this to families.

    But everything you mentioned just adds to the complexity of this for me. My mom always said, this property is hard to get if we lost it, it's in a good location with good transport links... we'd never get anything better.
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