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One Parking Solution PCN + Gladstones - Parked for 8mins, LBC for £208!
StubbornGoat
Posts: 157 Forumite
Last month, I received a letter from Gladstones demanding £208 for an unpaid PCN. Having no knowledge whatsoever of this PCN, I emailed them the following letter:
===========================================================================
To whom it may concern,
I have received your Letter Before Claim and would like to respond.
Your letter (which is the first I have ever heard of the charge) contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide the photographic evidence. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.
Your letter clearly breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction. Therefore I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. An explanation of the cause of action
2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. What the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
5. A copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
6. A copy of any alleged contract with the driver
I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20), Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information, yet your client has yet to provide it.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Regards,
===========================================================================
They have now responded with the following:
===========================================================================
Thank you for your correspondence, our reply to which is set out below.
We believe our Letter Before Complaint is compliant with the most up to date version of the Pre-Action Protocol (‘the Protocol’) however and without concession, we would be grateful for clarification as to your position with respect to non-compliance with the same.
It is noted that you have not provided an account of your version of events as is required by the Protocol.
Please find below our responses to your numbered questions below;
1. The motorist entered into a contract to park on the land pursuant to the signs with our Client. The contract allowed the motorist to park in accordance with the signs or, for a charge of £100, allowed the motorist the privilege to park outside of the conditions as stated on the signs. As the driver on the day of the charge parked otherwise than in accordance with the signs, they accepted a charge of £100. Payment of the charge has not been forthcoming within the relevant timeframe and as such, the contract has now been breached and further costs incurred as a result of the breach in having to facilitate the recovery of the debt. Our Client’s Accredited Trade Association also states that an additional fee may be applied upon the matter being referred for enforcement.
2. Your details were provided as the registered keeper of VRN XXXXXXX when a request was made to the DVLA. On the enclosed correpsondence you were provided with the opportunity to nominate a driver. As we are yet to receive any nomination; our Client is pursuing as the keeper. Our client accepts that it may not have been you driving the vehicle when the parking charge was issued however as you have failed to correctly nominate who was driving (full name and address) our client will continue to pursue you pursuant to Schedule 4 (4)(1) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the Act') which states:
'The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.'
If you nominate the driver by providing us with their full name and address prior to a claim being issued we will forward this to our client.
3. Our Client has complied with the provisions under POFA 2012.
4. Please see enclosed evidence.
5. Our client’s position is that the contract entered into is between itself and the motorist to which it acts as the Principal. Any other contract is therefore superfluous when considering liability. In the event a Court order specifies that a document to this effect must be provided, the Claimant will comply.
6. Please see enclosed evidence, a sign can be found in the photographs.
In the event payment isn’t made in the next 30 days further legal action will be taken.
Yours sincerely,
Gladstones Solicitors
===========================================================================
In the evidence they enclose, it does indeed show my wife unknowingly (due to poor signage) parking the car in a pay and display space, getting out, walking away from car, returning with a coffee, getting in the car and driving off.
The time stamps on the photos they have sent us show she parked up at 3:06pm and having jumped out to grab a coffee, returned to the car at 3:14pm
One Parking Solution Ltd sent the PCN to an old address, but Gladstones have sent a new letter to current address demanding £208 as I failed to respond to original letter (I never received).
My thoughts:
- There are photos which show I clearly am NOT the one driving the car
- Their photo timestamps show the car was parked for approx EIGHT minutes, which makes £208 charge ridiculous.
- The signage is also ridiculous (so high up, tiny text, no mention of £100 fine) see images below
https://i.postimg.cc/Dz6y0t2g/image1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/zBfDg0v1/image2.png
https://i.postimg.cc/KzsGrB33/image6.png
What options do I have?
Any help will be appreciated.
Many thanks
SG
===========================================================================
To whom it may concern,
I have received your Letter Before Claim and would like to respond.
Your letter (which is the first I have ever heard of the charge) contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide the photographic evidence. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.
Your letter clearly breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction. Therefore I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. An explanation of the cause of action
2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. What the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
5. A copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
6. A copy of any alleged contract with the driver
I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20), Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information, yet your client has yet to provide it.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Regards,
===========================================================================
They have now responded with the following:
===========================================================================
Thank you for your correspondence, our reply to which is set out below.
We believe our Letter Before Complaint is compliant with the most up to date version of the Pre-Action Protocol (‘the Protocol’) however and without concession, we would be grateful for clarification as to your position with respect to non-compliance with the same.
It is noted that you have not provided an account of your version of events as is required by the Protocol.
Please find below our responses to your numbered questions below;
1. The motorist entered into a contract to park on the land pursuant to the signs with our Client. The contract allowed the motorist to park in accordance with the signs or, for a charge of £100, allowed the motorist the privilege to park outside of the conditions as stated on the signs. As the driver on the day of the charge parked otherwise than in accordance with the signs, they accepted a charge of £100. Payment of the charge has not been forthcoming within the relevant timeframe and as such, the contract has now been breached and further costs incurred as a result of the breach in having to facilitate the recovery of the debt. Our Client’s Accredited Trade Association also states that an additional fee may be applied upon the matter being referred for enforcement.
2. Your details were provided as the registered keeper of VRN XXXXXXX when a request was made to the DVLA. On the enclosed correpsondence you were provided with the opportunity to nominate a driver. As we are yet to receive any nomination; our Client is pursuing as the keeper. Our client accepts that it may not have been you driving the vehicle when the parking charge was issued however as you have failed to correctly nominate who was driving (full name and address) our client will continue to pursue you pursuant to Schedule 4 (4)(1) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the Act') which states:
'The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.'
If you nominate the driver by providing us with their full name and address prior to a claim being issued we will forward this to our client.
3. Our Client has complied with the provisions under POFA 2012.
4. Please see enclosed evidence.
5. Our client’s position is that the contract entered into is between itself and the motorist to which it acts as the Principal. Any other contract is therefore superfluous when considering liability. In the event a Court order specifies that a document to this effect must be provided, the Claimant will comply.
6. Please see enclosed evidence, a sign can be found in the photographs.
In the event payment isn’t made in the next 30 days further legal action will be taken.
Yours sincerely,
Gladstones Solicitors
===========================================================================
In the evidence they enclose, it does indeed show my wife unknowingly (due to poor signage) parking the car in a pay and display space, getting out, walking away from car, returning with a coffee, getting in the car and driving off.
The time stamps on the photos they have sent us show she parked up at 3:06pm and having jumped out to grab a coffee, returned to the car at 3:14pm
One Parking Solution Ltd sent the PCN to an old address, but Gladstones have sent a new letter to current address demanding £208 as I failed to respond to original letter (I never received).
My thoughts:
- There are photos which show I clearly am NOT the one driving the car
- Their photo timestamps show the car was parked for approx EIGHT minutes, which makes £208 charge ridiculous.
- The signage is also ridiculous (so high up, tiny text, no mention of £100 fine) see images below
https://i.postimg.cc/Dz6y0t2g/image1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/zBfDg0v1/image2.png
https://i.postimg.cc/KzsGrB33/image6.png
What options do I have?
Any help will be appreciated.
Many thanks
SG
0
Comments
-
Aha, the ludicrous 'tell us your version of events' letter again, yawn!
And aha, Broadwater Street West in Worthing - my area! You need to be careful round there - I think it also has a notorious car park round the back near a school, with Napier Parking infesting it.
Tell your wife she's better on a double yellow line on street to grab a coffee, as long as she rushes a bit more, as proper PCNs can't be issued until at least 5 minutes of observation has passed. Or park round the back residential roads of they are still unrestricted; some were last time I was there, up nearer to Broadwater Green and right in the road beside the well known local footie fan Ian Hart's Funeral Directors.
Anyway, if you get a court claim in the end, no worrying about it. These are well worth fighting.
Assuming you are local, if I am free, I will attend with you if you like; I need the practice.
How about this reply (I do like a little sarcasm re these scam PCNs):Dear Gladstones,
I refer to your reply, which bears all the hallmarks of a template, given that it has been seen posted on online forums on several occasions when yet another claim bites the dust.
For the avoidance of doubt, my 'version of events' is that your clients are ex-clamper chancers with a terrible local reputation, who offer no fair service to any motorists and who clearly have no cause of action against me.
As confirmed by their own 'evidence photos' your clients sadly lack the basic concept of providing 'adequate notice' of any parking charge (nor indeed of any tariff or terms at all) and thus they fail to create any 'relevant contract' or 'relevant obligation'. In case you need a reminder, these are pre-requisites of the POFA 2012, Schedule 4. One Parking Solutions cannot hold a registered keeper liable due to this failure, regardless of their NTK.
Perhaps you should give them a lesson on signage and font size, if they are incapable of understanding their own Trade Body's Code of Practice rules. In addition, kindly ask them to explain why there is no entrance sign whatsoever before those two cash-cow bays, and why Google Street View shows 'Pay & Display' white writing on the road in June 2018:
https://goo.gl/maps/DHCuQYk5Lyy
...and yet their own images show they have managed to remove it completely. Why would that be, then? Did they paint it on public highway and were forced to remove the words, or did they remove it of their own volition, to leave drivers with no clue whatsoever that this is supposedly a professionally managed site?
Consider these questions to be a formal request for information, under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims.
A car park where people are allowed to park - and clearly a purported PDT machine car park is such a place - must have entrance signs to communicate to drivers that the land is managed, and that terms and conditions apply. The BPA CoP format is to display a large 'P' entrance sign, not pseudo Council-style 'give way', 5mph and speed bump signage immediately before two unmarked white bays, with (quelle surprise) a covert CCTV camera trained on them.
Talking of CCTV cameras - where is the data protection warning at the entrance? Have OPS heard of the GDPR? Perhaps they need to seek legal advice. Are they going to report their own breach regarding the collection of intrusive images of people and cars to the ICO, or shall I?
And talking of the BPA CoP, they also failed to consider the Grace Periods section, but then OPS are notorious for predatory ticketing within minutes by CCTV. I trust you will disabuse them of the misconception that this sort of ticketing is acceptable for fine upstanding AOS member firms...oh wait, no, you run baseless PCM claims regarding places like Heath Parade, so clearly this is normal for Gladstones.
Your conduct and that of your client already crosses the threshold of unreasonableness and I intend to claim my costs on the indemnity basis when any meritless robo-claim regarding this scam PCN, is defeated.
I am seeking debt advice so you must now take stock for 30 days, so I trust you will use that time wisely to discuss your clients' abject failures with them and review whether they can cobble together a credible case at all.
yours faithfully,PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Thank you CM!
What an excellent response! However I should have added, that although I only recently received the letter from Gladstones, the PCN dates back to September 2017 (though your comment "...and yet their own images show they have managed to remove it completely. " can just be spun to say... the fact that because Google Street View now shows 'Pay & Display' white writing on the road in June 2018, it proves that before this, there was inadequate signage!)
Yes, we live in West Sussex - and your offer to attend court with us, should it get to that point is amazing! Thank you.
So, I assume you see this going in the direction of court then?
SG0 -
I know that C-M means well, is well versed at this, and has all the right points. But don't forget that a letter such as that may well end up in front of a judge. So it pays to be a little less emotional, and just to play the ball straight down the line, setting out the facts in a dispassionate way and asking for the relevant information clearly and concisely.
Just my opinion, anyway.1 -
Coupon-mad wrote: »Aha, the ludicrous 'tell us your version of events' letter again, yawn!
snipped
Assuming you are local, if I am free, I will attend with you if you like; I need the practice. …
:
That is damn good.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
Yes, argue it that way instead. Also, go to that GSV link and change the timeline to 2015 - look - they used to have an entrance sign saying 'private property'! It also seems visible twisted sideways on the pole, in the 2016 image.StubbornGoat wrote: »Thank you CM!
What an excellent response!
However I should have added, that although I only recently received the letter from Gladstones, the PCN dates back to September 2017 (though your comment "...and yet their own images show they have managed to remove it completely. " can just be spun to say... the fact that because Google Street View now shows 'Pay & Display' white writing on the road in June 2018, it proves that before this, there was inadequate signage!)
So, this 2017 PCN fell within a timeline where they'd removed the sign about 'private property' and failed to replace it with anything at all at the entrance. Then sometime in 2018 they've painted the road.
So they know their signs were failing, and they certainly know they failed the BPA CoP, paras 18 and 30 and Appendix B, on MANDATORY entrance signs (version 6 applied in 2017):
https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf
18.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your
permission does so under a licence or contract with you.
If they park without your permission this will usually be
an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land
will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the
driver should be made aware of from the start. You must
use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your
terms and conditions are.
18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a
parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore,
as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about
the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have
a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the
parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car
park is managed and that there are terms and conditions
they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some
minimum general principles and be in a standard format.
The size of the sign must take into account the expected
speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is
recommended that you follow Department for Transport
guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an
entrance sign and more information about their use.
A standard form of entrance sign must be placed at the
entrance to the parking area.
30 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR)
30.1 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) camera
technology may be used for parking control and
enforcement. Operators using ANPR must do so in a
reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Signs
at the entrance must tell drivers that you are using this
technology. Your signs must make it clear what you will
use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.
30.2 If you provide parking facilities to the general public for a
fee, your system must allow drivers who have not paid
the fee to leave a site within a reasonable period that
allows for the conditions and environment of that parking
site. This grace period should be long enough to allow
motorists to leave without having their vehicle registration
mark processed for a parking charge.
Another thought is that in 2017 I do not think OPS used POFA wording on their NTKs (they do now but it's a very recent change) so can you show us the NTK please? You might need to add a point to the letter putting Gladstones to proof of their assertion that OPS 'will continue to pursue you pursuant to Schedule 4 (4)(1) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012'.
Well they can't, if they haven't complied with that Act!
I suspect they added the wording on the road due to complaints or losing at POPLA (or losing court cases) over the lack of entrance warning signs - i.e. the driver passed no sign that told them anything at all.
The white sign on the back of the Give Way sign is not only unexpected/hidden - drivers don't look at the back of Give Way signs expecting to find terms! - but this part of what looks like a 'public highway' side road (not private land) is not even a car park anyway and any PDT machine is beyond the bays and looks like it relates to the car park beyond that point.
It looks like a road leading to a car park, and the 2 bays with CCTV trained on them are clearly a trap.
Dunno about you, but I am quite happy with that reply being seen by a Judge! It says nothing that the MPs in Parliament didn't say in 2018 about the entire scam industry, and I reckon a Judge should be appraised of the absolute con that firms like this operate, day in day out. No faffing around being overly polite in pre-action letters as long as they are not rude or tell lies, and that doesn't.
BUT:
If it's not quite your style, by all means dumb the sarcasm down.
I don't necessarily see this getting a court claim, but we will see. The odd thing is Gladstones have sent a few of these letters out for OPS and Smart Parking in January for the first time and neither of those firms used to sue people.Yes, we live in West Sussex - and your offer to attend court with us, should it get to that point is amazing! Thank you.
So, I assume you see this going in the direction of court then?
SG
So either Smart and OPS are about to change that, or it's all hot air. It will go one way or the other, but if it's a claim, it's defendable and doesn't put your credit rating at risk.
I am happy to attend local court cases if I am available, since I went part time.
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Just to add, as it was in 2017 (pre-GDPR) you'll have to remove this:Talking of CCTV cameras - where is the data protection warning at the entrance? Have OPS heard of the GDPR?
Could instead be:Talking of CCTV cameras - where is the information telling a driver that CCTV is in operation and for what purpose, and how that data will be used? Have OPS heard of the BPA Code of Practice, the Data Protection Act, and the June 2013 Surveillance Camera Code of Practice, all of which they are supposedly signed up to comply with?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Just had a chance to read through all this... However I'm in Ireland visiting in-laws to Sunday night so will reply fully when I get back.
However I just wanted to add that the sarcasm is right up my street.. I don't see anything wrong with it and I'm more than happy to use it! Thanks again.
As for the NTK, I'll have to check when I get home on Sunday night /Monday
Have a great weekend
SG0 -
You and I & your wife will enjoy the hearing then if we share the same views & sense of humour about this scam!
I am just a local Mum of teenagers but don't worry, I know how to do 'professional and polite' in front of someone in authority, despite the fact I am a cynic and prone to sarcasm when faced with scamming or aggressive idiots. Lord knows I've seen a few off!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Hey C-M,
Here is the complete bundle, screenshot and privacy blacked out.
https://i.postimg.cc/FHM4VFQN/page1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/9MVHsxMk/page2.png
https://i.postimg.cc/wM4KygVK/page3.png (NTK part 1)
https://i.postimg.cc/8z68c8f3/page4.png (NTK part 2)
https://i.postimg.cc/XqYSYp9c/page5.png (Original LBC sent 15 Jan 2018)
https://i.postimg.cc/tRBGmNHr/page6.png
https://i.postimg.cc/MTDJwyfp/page7.png
https://i.postimg.cc/vHjFG8Tf/page8.png
https://i.postimg.cc/65Txs4WB/page9.png
https://i.postimg.cc/d0PbTW80/page10.png
https://i.postimg.cc/TPVZjr9J/page11.png
https://i.postimg.cc/j5RBML30/page12.png
https://i.postimg.cc/C1JXXS9Z/page13.png
https://i.postimg.cc/FzR8QwQT/page14.png
https://i.postimg.cc/XNHtgNwm/page15.png
https://i.postimg.cc/J02g7KrM/page16.png
SG0 -
Yes, parked in that bay from 3.06 till 3.14. How invasive is that CCTV?!
The other pics show the car manoeuvring as there was no intention to park in a car park.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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