Advice about a delayed parking fine

CainDingle

Hi all,

Hoping you can help with this.

Had to rent a car from Enterprise for 2 weeks over the Christmas period, as mine had died, and I was in the process of sourcing a new one.

Received an email from Enterprise on 31/01:

Dear Customer,
We were recently notified about a traffic violation notice for a vehicle rented to you at the time of the offence.
As per our rental agreement, we are notifying you of your liability. As the owners of the vehicle, we are required to provide the
hirer details to the relevant issuing authority who will in turn re-issue the fine to you. Once you have received this you will be
able to respond, pay or appeal directly to the authority.
Please note that if the reduced amount of the fine is applicable, you will still have the opportunity to pay this when the fine is
reissued to you.
In the case of speeding offences, once the fine is reissued, you will need to respond to the Police directly using the form they
provide.
As a reminder, your signature on the rental contract gives Enterprise full authorization to process any applicable charges for
associated administration fees. We will attempt to charge the card listed below.
Note: The administration fee is NOT part or full payment of the fine. You will need to pay the fine separately.
Details of the offence and your rental agreement are listed below. Full details will be available once the fine is reissued to you.
Enterprise will not pay the charge. You will be able to respond, pay or appeal directly to the authority when you receive the
notice.
If you have any queries regarding this invoice please contact the Traffic Violations Department on 01784 428 010



They state the citation date as 12/01, with an attached citation number, the Issuing agency as Minster Baywatch and a processing fee of £35. It states the citation amount as £0.

I've received no letter yet from Minster Baywatch or anybody else about payment.

What would you advise me to do/keep a look out for?

MistyZ

Well, as Enterprise have told you, you will almost certainly be getting a 'Notice to Hirer' from Minster Baywatch, i.e. the PCN re-issued to you as hirer. And again almost certainly, it will not include copies of the hire documents and will therefore not comply with POFA which makes for another almost certainty: a POPLA win.

Check out the hire car section of the Newbies' thread.

Meanwhile, fire off a landowner complaint if at all possible. If you do do this, it needs to be good so look around the forum for ideas. And refuse to pay the hire company's admin fee. This is not a fine, it's an invoice and hire companies' T&Cs don't cover invoices. There again, there are several ways to tackle the admin fee, a search for other hire car posts will help.

Fruitcake

Wait for the NTH then appeal using the Edna Basher template from the NEWBIES. There is more than one, but you want the one for private hire/lease, not fleet manager hire/lease version.

Thoroughly check the Rentaprize Ts and Cs as they mention fines, violations, and authority in their letter to you.

Private parking scammers fit none of these. They have received a speculative invoice from an unregulated parking scammer not "an authority". No traffic violation has occurred. No fine has been issued.

You should give them warning that when you beat the parking scammers and show the hire car proof it should never have been issued, you expect to get the handling fee refunded. If not you will commence a chargeback from your card provider
Note that you only have three months to do a charge back.

Complain to your MP about this unregulated scam and tell the hire co you have done so. MPs across all parties want this scam stopped, and Rentaprize are party to this shameful industry.

The_Deep

The whole industry is a scam, relying on threats of court, and the public's ignorance of the Law, A bill is currently before parliament which will regulate the scammers, many of whom are ex-clampers.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Second Reading in the Lords this month, and, with a fair wind, will l become Law later this year..

All five readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 7-8 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.

CainDingle

The T&Cs on the rental agreement are:

STATEMENT OF LIABILITY: I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FOR THE
PERIOD OF THE RENTAL I SHALL BE LIABLE AS THE OWNER OF
THE VEHICLE FOR ANY FIXED PENALTY OFFENCE COMMITTED
WITH RESPECT TO THE VEHICLE OR ANY PENALTY OR
PARKING CHARGE NOTICE, ANY EXCESS CHARGE OR PENALTY
CHARGE FOR PARKING OR BUS LANE CONTRAVENTIONS
WHICH MAY BE INCURRED AND ANY CHARGES AND PENALTY
CHARGES INCURRED UNDER A ROAD USER CHARGING
SCHEME.
BY SIGNING BELOW I AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
AND AUTHORISE YOU TO OBTAIN PAYMENT OF ALL
AMOUNTS DUE OR WHICH BECOME DUE UNDER THIS RENTAL
AGREEMENT (PARAGRAPH 6 T&Cs) BY DEBITING THE CREDIT
OR DEBIT CARD PRESENTED FOR WHICH I MAY HAVE PAID
TO YOU. I ALSO CONFIRM (AND CONFIRM ON BEHALF OF
ANY ADDITIONAL DRIVERS) THE CONSENTS PROVIDED IN
RELATION TO THE USE OF PERSONAL DATA DESCRIBED IN
PARAGRAPH 10 OF THIS RENTAL AGREEMENT.

From an average Cain like myself, that looks like they have me fair and square on the processing fee, that they gave me fair warning. (It's already been taken out of my bank by the way, using the card details they have for me)

Is that the case, or do I have a position to challenge this too?

Fruitcake

Have a look at the detailed Ts and Cs on their website. We have seen this before where a Parking Charge Notice is mentioned on the paper you sign when you collect the car, but is not mentioned on the longer full terms and conditions.

In your first post you quote different wording to your latest post. They must be the same. They cannot have one set of Ts and Cs, say an abbreviated version, and different wording elsewhere.
I can't rember the relevant act, possibly the Consumer Act that says the terms that are most favourable to the customer are the ones that must prevail, or words to that effect.

So, that's the fist thing to check.

Next is to beat the scammers at PoPLA when they fail to provide all the relevant documents required by Paras 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012.

I have yet to see a scammers manage this, but of course you could be unlucky enough to be the first.

However, assuming they fail to follow the PoFA and you win your appeal, then you have the ammo to go back to the hire co and say it was unlawfully issued ad therefore you want your money back they charged you in error.

Whatever else you do, please complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

MistyZ

I doubt that really covers it, though I understand what you mean about the wording. Challenge the admin fee on the basis that you intend to deal with this. As Fruitcake says above:

'You should give them warning that when you beat the parking scammers and show the hire car proof it should never have been issued, you expect to get the handling fee refunded. If not you will commence a chargeback from your card provider
Note that you only have three months to do a charge back.'

Always better to make your intentions and displeasure clear, I believe. If you play your cards right, a hire car PCN is very winnable at POPLA - I know, I couldn't believe it either, at first!

Edit: Fruitcake overlapped with me .... interesting point about their contradictory statements.

CainDingle

5d. Additional Obligations - You shall pay to us on demand:

All fines and court costs for parking, bus lane, congestion charge, traffic or other offences assessed against the Vehicle, us, you, any Additional driver or any other driver you permitted to use the Vehicle until the Vehicle is returned to us unless caused by our own fault;

A reasonable administration fee for processing any fines or offences against the vehicle, you or us during the rental period, unless caused by our own fault;



This was what I found in the terms and conditions.

I can't provide the link to the T&Cs , as a new user to the Forums, sadly

Thanks in advance for all your help, it is very appreciated

KeithP

CainDingle wrote: »

All fines and court costs for parking, bus lane, congestion charge, traffic or other offences assessed against the Vehicle, us, you, any Additional driver or any other driver you permitted to use the Vehicle until the Vehicle is returned to us unless caused by our own fault;

So which one in that list matches your alleged indiscretion?

It's not a fine or court costs for parking.

It's not a fine or court costs for bus lane or congestion charge.

It's not a fine or court costs for traffic or other offences - no offence has been committed.

CainDingle

Won't they argue that it's a fine for parking?

I can see how I can dispute that once I beat Minster Baywatch at PoPLA as Fruitcake said, though.

KeithP

But it simply is not a fine.

A private company cannot issue a fine.

All it is is a speculative invoice.

If I were to send them an invoice for, say, washing one of their cars, do you think they would pay it without asking questions?

This is why it is very important that in any discussions with the hire company you never ever use that 'f' word.