Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

SouthLondonUser

wunferall wrote: »

I don't get any direct say in who is my GP.
I don't get any direct say in which policeman arrives if I dial 999 (if, of course, one arrives at all; I suppose screaming "terrorist" and "bomb" might increase the chance of that. ).
There are as I'm sure you can accept SLU many more examples I could use.

First of all you are confusing civil servants and politicians. Is a GP even a civil servant? But let's not get distracted with semantics. The point is, the appointment to certain jobs has nothing to do with elections. People don't become GPs or headteacher or policeman or university lecturer because "the people" voted them into their role. Similarly, "the people" cannot vote them out.


That you make such confusion suggests your understanding is, to put it kindly, extremely poor.

wunferall wrote: »

Now the bit you seem to keep ignoring is that there are effective mechanisms in place which could lead to the removal of any of these if it were deemed necessary to do so were you or I to complain if enough people agreed.

Nope. You are more wrong than the NHS bus."Enough people" may agree that they don't like a GP, or don't like a surgeon in the local hospital, or whatever, but that is totally, completely and utterly irrelevant because it would not mean that "the people" have a right to remove these workers. If these workers have done something wrong, of course there are mechanisms to get rid of them; but that's to do with the justice system, not with what "enough people agree".



By your logic, a majority of Brexit fanatics would have the right to demand the removal of a competent but wholeheartedly pro-remain GP or doctor or headteacher?? Or, viceversa, pro-Remain fanatics could demand the removal of pro-Brexit employees??

wunferall wrote: »

Even as a country we can not equally remove an EU commissioner.

But of course! What would you propose? That each country should have veto right on everything and anything? Then the EU would be ungovernable!


One fundamental misunderstanding on the EU is that the UK is not used to finding political compromise. We mostly have a two-party system, are not used to political coalitions, and the PMs have a lot more power than their peers on the Continent. Most European countries are more used to political compromise (coalitions, etc). But, the thing is, a supranational entity with more than 20 countries can only function by compromise, which, again, is a totally alien concept in British politics.

wunferall wrote: »

Dodge and misdirect all you want; pose all the irrelevant questions you want; it will not disprove that one simple fact.
That one fact proves irrefutably that as far as the UK (or indeed any single EU member country) is concerned, the selection of EU ministers is indeed less democratic than your preferred choice of example which was a UK minister.

You confuse civil servants and politicians, talk about removing GPs "if enough people agree", and then I'd be the one dodging and misdirecting? I think you might want to take a moment to reflect on what you wrote...


The selection is less democratic? Mate, I have grown tired of asking what direct say you have in who gets to be minister of what...


We have established that UK electors have no direct say in who gets to be minister of what.


I have shown that many EU commissioners were, in fact, elected in some kind of public office. I asked if a requirement that they all be MEPs or MPs in their countries would address these reservations about the supposed lack of democratic mandate, but no answer.


I did say at the very beginning that it is of course easier to apply pressure in a single country to get rid of an unwanted minister, than to do the same at the EU level to get rid of a EU Commissioner, but that is also normal when comparing national vs supranational bodies.


Look, I am not saying that every single EU Commissioner has always been the best there could have been, but the same can be said about UK ministers!
For all I know, there may be specific examples of EU Commissioners who weren't kicked out despite obvious failings; if you know of such cases, let's talk about them and about whether they were representative or isolated cases.

SouthLondonUser

Tromking wrote: »

Was it ever thus.
The weakness of democracies I suppose, no wonder you prefer political appointees to democratically accountable politicians.
You simply don’t trust yourself to vote in the right way.

It would be very interesting to understand what the Brexiters on this forum thought of the NHS bus. Did they not see through the lie? Did they know it was a lie, but said nothing because it was in their interest that more people voted Leave, even if based on lies? Or what?

SouthLondonUser

ben501 wrote: »

Sorry, don't have time now for a full catchup, but please let me know which part of my comment was 'factually incorrect'.

Nothing of what you wrote was factually incorrect. I was unclear in my reply and I appreciate it may have been misinterpreted as saying you were factually incorrect; I apologise for that.


The 'factually incorrect' referred to the many other Brexiters on the forum who have come up with loads of nonsense, like the guy who said that other EU countries are "one party states" because they do not have a shadow cabinet, or those who said we vote ministers in and can vote them out, etc.





Some of what you said was irrelevant, because the fact that most Ministers were elected as MPs does not change the fact that they were not elected as Ministers, and electors have no direct say in who gets to be minister of what. When I pointed this out, you accused me of asking questions I didn't want answering.

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

It would be very interesting to understand what the Brexiters on this forum thought of the NHS bus. Did they not see through the lie? Did they know it was a lie, but said nothing because it was in their interest that more people voted Leave, even if based on lies? Or what?

Let it go fella and move on.
To answer your question(s) I cant remember.

Herzlos

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

It would be very interesting to understand what the Brexiters on this forum thought of the NHS bus. Did they not see through the lie? Did they know it was a lie, but said nothing because it was in their interest that more people voted Leave, even if based on lies? Or what?

Recent polling showed something like half of brexiteers still believed the bus.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Recent polling showed something like half of brexiteers still believed the bus.

Another poll showed that Remoaners are still crying themselves to sleep over the Bus.

SouthLondonUser

Yes, why have any objections at all on a life changing political result that was based on blatant lies, which many voters still to see through after so long? What's the big deal, right?

Tromking

I’m sure your own world view has been assisted in the past by creative campaigning tactics. The Bus was excellent politics.

SouthLondonUser

If you mean I am as stupid as the idiots who failed to see through the lies of the NHS bus, then, well, no.

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

If you mean I am as stupid as the idiots who failed to see through the lies of the NHS bus, then, well, no.

I get that you think people like me are stupid and you are so much cleverer. Would it assuage your anger if I acknowledged my lack of intelligence and your undoubted superiority in that regard?