Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

StevieJ

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Sigh...

Remind me again how a UK Cabinet Minister is directly accountable to you? Remind me again how you have a direct say in who gets to be minister of what? Remind me again how electors are consulted when a PM decides to reshuffle the cabinet?
.

Ironically, as soon as an MP is given a ministerial post they have very little time for the people who actually elected them. :cool:

J_Nostin

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Sigh... I despair. I do wonder if it's a combination of bad faith and ignorance, or of good faith and confusion.

No, it's not true that in the UK we can explicitly get rid of a minister.

I saw someone post that it looks like you're becoming obsessed with this but since you're so obviously wrong I had to post. It's not that I'm encouraging you.

So, what about "UK government minister Priti Patel resigned Wednesday amid a political storm over her undisclosed meetings with Israeli officials." ? No doubt you'll try to say that it wasn't the result of any public uproar; you would (again) be wrong.

How about "Damian Green sacked after 'misleading statements' on !!!!!! claims"? Or the SNP's Gillian Martin being sacked just before taking up a ministerial post because of her racist and xenophobic remarks?

I hate to tell you this & I'm sure you'll try wriggling out of accepting these somehow but these
are ministers that have been removed fairly recently.

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Sigh...
Remind me again how a UK Cabinet Minister is directly accountable to you? Remind me again how you have a direct say in who gets to be minister of what? Remind me again how electors are consulted when a PM decides to reshuffle the cabinet?

This is becoming painful.
We are a parliamentary democracy, the executive is usually drawn from elected MP's who if they are part of the largest party political grouping, they are invited to form a Government.
If I want to remove a Tory Minister, I can vote Labour at the next GE and if enough people agree with me, he/she is gone.
I vote for my Lawmaker at Westminster, in Brussels I have no input whatsoever.

buglawton

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Sigh...

Remind me again how a UK Cabinet Minister is directly accountable to you? Remind me again how you have a direct say in who gets to be minister of what? Remind me again how electors are consulted when a PM decides to reshuffle the cabinet?

I am, yes, a strong believer in the merits of a written Constitution which sets explicit checks and balances among the powers of a democracy. I am a strong believer in a liberal democracy so structured to prevent the abomination of a tiranny of the majority.

For example, I believe has shown the limits of the unwritten Constitution of the UK. I will never understand how it makes sense that this country requires a qualified majority in the Commons to call an early election, but something as life changing as the Brexit referendum can be decided on a simple majority.

Also, the written Constitutions of many countries prohibit referendums on certain topics (tiranny of the majority, risk of populism etc etc), and rightly so.

Cabinet ministers frequently get reshuffled. Some say that's not a good thing as they don't gain expertise. But it does prove that mistakes and gaffes that outrage public opinion do not go unpunished. How often is there a reshuffle of EU bigwigs based on the effects of their policies on public events? Think: Euro, migration, dieselgate...

J_Nostin

The EU Commission had problems in 1999 & they resigned en masse. It looks like they simply learned not to allow inquiries into their actions after that debacle.

Europe was left decapitated last night as the entire European Commission resigned en masse after a devastating report by an independent committee of inquiry

The parliament, acting in the name of democratic accountability, has now ended the life of an unelected commission.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/16/eu.politics1

You have to smile. After this the EU said they would move to be more open and honest, which still ain't so as per the promotion of Selmayer by Junckers according to the EU's own ombudsman for just one recent example.

Buglawton is right, there has been at least as much damage done as a result of immigration alone and yet where is the inquiry or reshuffle because of policies on that?

SouthLondonUser

J_Nostin wrote: »

I saw someone post that it looks like you're becoming obsessed with this but since you're so obviously wrong I had to post. It's not that I'm encouraging you.

So, what about "UK government minister Priti Patel resigned Wednesday amid a political storm over her undisclosed meetings with Israeli officials." ? No doubt you'll try to say that it wasn't the result of any public uproar; you would (again) be wrong.

If wanting to rectify fake news means being obsessed, then so be it.


No, I am not wrong. Not in the slightest.


I can only suppose you must have missed the bit where I said:

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

UK electors can apply pressure if they want to get rid of a minister. But there is no explicit mechanism that allows them to do so directly.

It is of course true that it is easier to apply pressure at a national level to get rid of a country minister, than at a EU level to get rid of a EU Commissioner, but this doesn't, per se, make EU commissioners less "democratic" than UK ministers.

The examples you mention are a combination of pressure from the electorate and expectations/calculations by the PM that it would have been politically more beneficial to sack certain ministers. It doesn't change the fact that the UK electorate has no direct say in who gets to be minister of what, nor for how long.


Can I also remind you that the key architect of the Windrush scandal is currently in number 10 and has refused to apologise for her 'hostile environment' policy which caused it? See, it's not like our political system is a perfect meritocracy; also, Cabinet reshuffles may also sometimes have to do more with the political agenda of the PM than with meritocracy or the interest of the country, e.g. removing a minister that was becoming too much of a threat to the current PM.


If the UK government appoints a EU Commissioner that is wholly incompetent and inadequate, the UK electorate can hold the government that made the appointment to account.
If another country appoints a EU Commissioner who is inadequate, you cannot hold that government to account, but you can hold your MEPs to account, ask them why they approved the appointments, why they didn't grill the commissioner at question time, etc.


No, it's not perfect, but it's not as undemocratic as Brexiters like to paint it.


Also, the fact that most Brist have no clue who their MEPs are, who the EU Commissioners are, etc etc., doesn't clearly help. But that is hardly the EU's fault!

SouthLondonUser

Tromking wrote: »

This is becoming painful.
We are a parliamentary democracy, the executive is usually drawn from elected MP's who if they are part of the largest party political grouping, they are invited to form a Government.
If I want to remove a Tory Minister, I can vote Labour at the next GE and if enough people agree with me, he/she is gone.
I vote for my Lawmaker at Westminster, in Brussels I have no input whatsoever.

Yes, I agree on one thing: it is becoming painful! Let's try to make it simpler:

Do you have any direct say in who gets to be minister of what? Yes or no? Please answer.

If you vote, say, Tory, but want X and not Y to be minister, do you have any way to express that choice? Yes or no? Please answer.

At the next elections, you can continue to vote Tory or vote for another party. Do you have any way to say: I am voting Tory but I want ministers A, B and C to change? Yes or no? Please answer.

Sure, you can vote for another party at the next elections (not before). You can protest, apply pressure etc to complain against a minister you find incompetent. What you cannot do is express a direct choice for the Cabinet.

If as you say, you vote Labour, that's not removing a minister : that is electing another MP who will vote for another PM who will appoint a different Cabinet, Cabinet over which you will continue to have no direct say whatsoever.

BobQ

Tromking wrote: »

This is becoming painful.
We are a parliamentary democracy, the executive is usually drawn from elected MP's who if they are part of the largest party political grouping, they are invited to form a Government.
If I want to remove a Tory Minister, I can vote Labour at the next GE and if enough people agree with me, he/she is gone.
I vote for my Lawmaker at Westminster, in Brussels I have no input whatsoever.

This is getting silly. There are many people appointed by Ministers who you as a voter does not choose directly or control. Why make a fuss over a Commissioner? Who appointed the Directors of the Bank of England for example? They do not change when you vote in a different government. There are lots of appointments for which you have no say.

What amazes me is that there is nothing to stop any EU member appointing their nominee for Commissioner by a democratic vote . yet nations choose not to do so.

wunferall

I don't get any direct say in who is my GP.
I don't get any direct say in which policeman arrives if I dial 999 (if, of course, one arrives at all; I suppose screaming "terrorist" and "bomb" might increase the chance of that. ).
There are as I'm sure you can accept SLU many more examples I could use.

Now the bit you seem to keep ignoring is that there are effective mechanisms in place which could lead to the removal of any of these if it were deemed necessary to do so were you or I to complain if enough people agreed.

Even as a country we can not equally remove an EU commissioner.

Dodge and misdirect all you want; pose all the irrelevant questions you want; it will not disprove that one simple fact.
That one fact proves irrefutably that as far as the UK (or indeed any single EU member country) is concerned, the selection of EU ministers is indeed less democratic than your preferred choice of example which was a UK minister.

wunferall

BobQ wrote: »

This is getting silly. There are many people appointed by Ministers who you as a voter does not choose directly or control. Why make a fuss over a Commissioner? Who appointed the Directors of the Bank of England for example? They do not change when you vote in a different government. There are lots of appointments for which you have no say.

What amazes me is that there is nothing to stop any EU member appointing their nominee for Commissioner by a democratic vote . yet nations choose not to do so.

That's because the final say of who gets elected goes to the President so they know there's no point.
As with Selmayer's appointment, they're all a foregone conclusion.;)