Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

ben501

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. Even if a cabinet minister was elected as MP, this doesn't change the fact that he was not elected as Minister. The UK electorate has no direct say whatsoever in who gets to be minister of what.

Why ask a question if you don't want it answering?




A reminder

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

please be so kind as to explain how the appointment of the EU Commissioners is different from the appointment of UK ministers?

Are both EU Commissioners and UK ministers 'undemocratic' as neither are selected directly by the people?

We may not vote the minister into the ministerial job, but they have still usually been voted voted into public office.


Our EU commissioner has not been subject to any public vote. I think you'll find that is a big difference.


It may not be the answer you wanted, but maybe that's because you asked the wrong question.

SouthLondonUser

@ben501, it's not true that I don't want an answer - I don't want an irrelevant and factually incorrect answer. I don't mind my MP, but I wouldn't want her to be a minister of anything.

AFAIK there is no Constitutional requirement for a UK minister to be an MP, although most tend to be (right now, they all are).

So your gripe is that UK ministers have typically been elected in public office, whereas EU Commissioners not. Am I getting this right?

Would your reservations be addressed if, say, EU Commissioners could only be chosen from MEPs or from MPs of EU member countries? In these cases, would you be happy or would you still say that EU Commissioners are undemocratic?

I believe there are cases of EU Commissioners who were MPs; the Italian Mogherini is probably one such example. I honestly do not know if she resigned as an MP nor if there is an explicit requirement to do so or what.

SouthLondonUser

PS If you go here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019_en
click on the Commissioners, then on "Bio" on the left, you'll see that many were, in fact, elected in some kind of public office.

MEP: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/sefcovic_en#timeline
Another MEP: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/dombrovskis_en#timeline

Others were elected as MPs of their countries (although I admit I don't exactly know if they were appointed Commissioners after their mandate as MP ended)

@Ben501, does this give you some comfort that the Commissioners are not as undemocratic as initially thought?

kabayiri

andrewf75 wrote: »

why can't we just have the status quo where the vast majority of governance is by national governments with a few things done at an EU level?

Possibly a matter of trust.

I see the words 'status quo' quite a lot when it comes to the EU.

I may be wrong, but I just don't see how the EU can survive by maintaining a status quo.

For one, the world around it is changing too much. For another, there will be pressure to change from internal conflicts of interest.

We should really decide, in a big way, where the power lies. If the majority in the EU wanted a centralized government, I would argue that is a clear decision.

And...to be consistent, I don't really see the point in a Scottish government if they choose to Remain in our Union. It's just an ongoing point of tension and conflict.

buglawton

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

PS If you go here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019_en
click on the Commissioners, then on "Bio" on the left, you'll see that many were, in fact, elected in some kind of public office.

MEP: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/sefcovic_en#timeline
Another MEP: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/dombrovskis_en#timeline

Others were elected as MPs of their countries (although I admit I don't exactly know if they were appointed Commissioners after their mandate as MP ended)

@Ben501, does this give you some comfort that the Commissioners are not as undemocratic as initially thought?

Do they hold surgeries where their constituents can take their problems? When did they last have to stand up and answer questions to the Opposition?

SouthLondonUser

So do you accept that many EU Commissioners do have some kind of electoral mandate? Yes or no?

buglawton wrote: »

Do they hold surgeries where their constituents can take their problems?

That is something MPs do, not ministers. An MP represents his/her constituents and it makes perfect sense that he/she holds surgeries to listen to the constituents etc etc.

A minister represents the whole country (to be precise, MPs must also act in the best interest of the country as a whole, but let's not get too technical). It would make no sense for a minister to hold a surgery in a single constituency, not in his/her capacity as minister, at least.

buglawton wrote: »

When did they last have to stand up and answer questions to the Opposition?

The rules around Question Time at the European Parliament may be of interest:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getLastRules.do?language=EN&reference=RULE-129

So, to recap, the discussion has so far gone like this:

EU Commissioners are not democratic because they are not elected by the people!
But neither are UK ministers!

But UK ministers are MPs!
Typically yes, but they are not elected as Ministers.

But they are still elected in some capacity!
Well, so are many EU Commissioners who were MEPs, or MPs in their countries.

But EU Commissioners don't hold surgeries!
Well, that's something MPs do - Ministers should engage with the public but shouldn't hold surgeries with, or priorities, one constituency over the other

But EU Commissioners don't answer to the Opposition!
There is such a thing as question time in the European Parliament

Any more objections or reservations?

wunferall

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Any more objections or reservations?

If we as a country don't like a minister we can get rid, either by voting at an election or by public outcry.
Look at recent history.


How can we as a country remove any of these EU commissioners?
The simple answer is we can not.

That might not matter after May's elections for a new set of MEP's though because it's looking like a rise in populist MEP's across the board - and they will soon shake the system up.
:T

wunferall

We are facing a cliff edge because of Brexit, remainers keep telling us!
:rotfl:
Well, as the remaining major EU contributors languish in recession or remain stagnant the UK continues to grow and to prosper.
"UK posts record budget surplus in January"

Britain ran a surplus of £14.895 billion in January, official data showed, the highest since monthly records began in 1993
....... The budget deficit looks on track to drop to its lowest since 2001/02 at just over 1 percent of national income this financial year

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-borrowing/uk-public-finances-hit-record-monthly-surplus-due-to-strong-income-tax-revenue-idUKKCN1QA13G

Thrugelmir

Barnier is a clear case in point. Not a civil servant. Is an active part of the EPP.

The EPP has been the largest party in the European Parliament since 1999 and in the European Council since 2002. It is also by far the largest party in the current European Commission. The President of the European Council, President of the European Commission and the President of the European Parliament are all from the EPP. Many of the Founding fathers of the European Union were also from parties that later formed the EPP. Outside the EU the party also controls a majority in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. The EPP has alternated with its centre-left rival the Party of European Socialists (PES) as the largest European political party and parliamentary group.

The EPP includes major centre-right parties such as the Union of Germany (CDU/CSU), The Republicans of France, CD&V of Belgium, KDU-ČSL of the Czech Republic, Fine Gael of Ireland, New Democracy (Greece) of Greece, Forza Italia of Italy, the People's Party (PP) of Spain and the Social Democratic Party of Portugal, the Civic Platform of Poland but also Fidesz of Hungary.

Who appointed him to be Chief negotiator?

Who is he representing his party or the broader European electorate?

wunferall

More tales of Brexit doom with this:

British factory orders picked up this month after dipping in January, and output is expected to be solid as Britain leaves the European Union, a survey from the Confederation of British Industry showed on Wednesday.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-manufacturing/uk-manufacturers-see-stronger-orders-average-output-growth-cbi-idUKKCN1Q91AP
:T