Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

andrewf75

mayonnaise wrote: »

Never trust a politician, but I'd say that this bunch has proved to be way more competent than the collection of nincompoops on our side.

which is why they are so hated I guess - because they refuse to play the games our politicians are trying to engage in and just stubbornly stick to the principles their jobs are there to uphold.

As much as I want the best deal for us, I hope the EU doesn't budge from its principles. We have behaved pretty disgracefully and don't deserve an extension of article 50 or whatever else they might do to help us out of the mess we alone created.

We made our bed, time for us to lie in it.

kabayiri

Lungboy wrote: »

I'd pick the EU bunch in a heartbeat over May, Boris, Gove, IDS, McVey, Patel, Hunt and disgraced MP Liam Fox.

I'd be up for a clear / clean second referendum.

Who do you want to govern us?

a) our Tory MPs (and occasionally Labour)
b) Juncker; Barnier and mates.

We might as well make our mind up!

Juncker can sell his credentials on that glorious reference point that is Luxembourg. A tax crafty state to envy!

phillw

kabayiri wrote: »

I'd be up for a clear / clean second referendum.

Who do you want to govern us?

a) our Tory MPs (and occasionally Labour)
b) Juncker; Barnier and mates.

We might as well make our mind up!

How is that clear?

Is option b) devolve all power to democratically elected MEPs in the EU

I'd be up for that if every other EU member did it, but I think that would be difficult because xenophobia isn't limited to the UK.

However we've been pretty successful devolving a limited amount of power to democratically elected MEPs and left the rest with our sovereign government.

The way things are at the moment is like 4 married couples stranded on an island and we're a little bored but the other 3 couples are deeply in love, so we split up in case we can steal someone elses wife. Sure we can all be friends with each other, but instead of working out our difficulties with our partner we've decided we'd be much happier wallowing in self pity.

fatbeetle

Lungboy wrote: »

I'd pick the EU bunch in a heartbeat over May, Boris, Gove, IDS, McVey, Patel, Hunt and disgraced MP Liam Fox.

But you cannot pick them. The undemocratic EU does not allow us to choose the commissioners.

EU commissioners on the other hand are proposed by national governments and selected by the president of the European Commission.

SouthLondonUser

fatbeetle wrote: »

But you cannot pick them. The undemocratic EU does not allow us to choose the commissioners.

As you also quoted below, EU Commissioners are first indicated by national governments, then voted by the EU Parliament, whose members are, as you know, elected directly by EU voters.


For the trillionth time, could someone (in this case you, since you brought it up) please be so kind as to explain how the appointment of the EU Commissioners is different from the appointment of UK ministers?

Last I checked, in this country electors have no direct say on who gets to be minister of what; ministers are appointed by the PM.

Are both EU Commissioners and UK ministers 'undemocratic' as neither are selected directly by the people?

Or is one indirect appointment OK, while the other one is worth screaming blue murder over?

Please explain. Thank you.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

I'd be up for a clear / clean second referendum.

Who do you want to govern us?

a) our Tory MPs (and occasionally Labour)
b) Juncker; Barnier and mates.

We might as well make our mind up!

why can't we just have the status quo where the vast majority of governance is by national governments with a few things done at an EU level?

J_Nostin

Easy. Our Queen doesn't select our ministers.

The EU President does for the EU and this is questionable, hence the European Ombudsman's criticism over Selmayer's selection. FYI Juncker's appointment was opposed by not only the UK but by the Netherlands, Hungary & Sweden in 2014.

ben501

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

For the trillionth time, could someone (in this case you, since you brought it up) please be so kind as to explain how the appointment of the EU Commissioners is different from the appointment of UK ministers?

Last I checked, in this country electors have no direct say on who gets to be minister of what; ministers are appointed by the PM.
.

I'm quite happy to be corrected, but I believe that UK ministers are generally (though not necessarily) selected from MPs who have been voted in by the electorate.


The EU Commissioners, at least using the current Julian King as an example, are nominated by member countries, not through a public vote.


(not saying one is better than the other. Simply answering you query)


Interestingly, well maybe, the idea of elected, representative Commissioners was suggested some time ago.
https://euobserver.com/news/29742

European Parliament chief Jerzy Buzek has said EU commissioners should in future be directly elected rather than hand-picked by national governments.

SouthLondonUser

J_Nostin wrote: »

Easy. Our Queen doesn't select our ministers.

The EU President does for the EU and this is questionable, hence the European Ombudsman's criticism over Selmayer's selection. FYI Juncker's appointment was opposed by not only the UK but by the Netherlands, Hungary & Sweden in 2014.

Still not following.

Surely you recognise that neither UK ministers nor EU Commissioners are elected directly by the people in their roles? This is a fact - if you are not willing to admit a fact there is no point in continuing a discussion (ministers may have been elected as MPs, but this doesn't change the fact that electors have no say in who gets to be minister of what).

Since both UK ministers and EU Commissioners are not elected directly by the people, and since I have not heard a single Brexiter ever say that UK ministers should be elected directly by the people, I can only conclude that the problem is not that EU Commissioners are not elected directly by the people, but that the indirect method through which they are appointed has some flaws, flaws which are presumably not present in the method with which UK ministers are appointed.

Care to elaborate, please??

Note I am not saying the EU system is perfect, far from it, I am just saying that screaming blue murder over the indirect appointment of EU Commissioners, without understanding that UK ministers are indirectly appointed, too, makes no sense.

SouthLondonUser

ben501 wrote: »

I'm quite happy to be corrected, but I believe that UK ministers are generally (though not necessarily) selected from MPs who have been voted in by the electorate.

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. Even if a cabinet minister was elected as MP, this doesn't change the fact that he was not elected as Minister. The UK electorate has no direct say whatsoever in who gets to be minister of what.