Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

SouthLondonUser

I wonder if all the accomplished scholars in comparative constitutional law, who probably graduated from the University of the Daily Fail, will ever admit they were factually wrong. Mmm, maybe that's too much to ask...

Anyway, this is fun (and sad at the same time) : any more Brexit myths to debunk? The NHS bus doesn't need any more debunking, does it?

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The fact remains that UK electors have no say whatsoever on who gets to be minister of what. No minister is voted into the role of minister. Nor do UK electors have any direct say whatsoever when PMs decide to reshuffle their cabinet.

I have already pointed out that many EU Commissioners were in fact elected in some capacity. Would you be more comfortable if, say, there were a requirement to choose EU a Commissioners only from MEPs? And/or from MPs of the member countries? Would that be sufficient to address your reservations?

Also, to be precise, while rare, there have been cases of UK Cabinet Ministers who were neither MPs nor Lords: Patrick Gordon Walker and Frank Cousins. Look them up. I also don't need to remind you that members of the house of Lords can be Cabinet Ministers, but they are most certainly NOT elected by UK voters.

What's that I hear? Was that a "sorry, you're right"? Louder, please

Oh Dear, this is turning slightly obsessional for you I can tell.
It is not easy to argue in favour of our democratic system when you have the festering sore of the Lords in full view I’ll admit. That said, the Lords do not instigate legislatation unlike the EU commission.
I wasn’t aware of the two unelected Ministers from the Harold Wilson era, but it does look one had to resign because he failed to win a subsequent by-election and the other carried on as a Minister when he actually won one a few weeks later. The situation re. the unelected nature of the EU Commission is the norm, the situation re. unelected Ministers is very much not the norm.
Going forward, the EU can do want it wants, we’re leaving. I suspect however that they’ll continue to err on the side of political expediency rather them my preference of democratic accountability to the electorate.
Our system means you don’t directly elect Ministers, but you do elect an MP of a political party standing on a specific manifesto. Again, wholly more democratic than the EU’s system which seems to be all to conveniently distanced away from the European electorate.
I do get that some people like yourself are entirely comfortable with the EU’s way of doing things though.

buglawton

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The fact remains that UK electors have no say whatsoever on who gets to be minister of what. No minister is voted into the role of minister. Nor do UK electors have any direct say whatsoever when PMs decide to reshuffle their cabinet.

I have already pointed out that many EU Commissioners were in fact elected in some capacity. Would you be more comfortable if, say, there were a requirement to choose EU a Commissioners only from MEPs? And/or from MPs of the member countries? Would that be sufficient to address your reservations?

Also, to be precise, while rare, there have been cases of UK Cabinet Ministers who were neither MPs nor Lords: Patrick Gordon Walker and Frank Cousins. Look them up. I also don't need to remind you that members of the house of Lords can be Cabinet Ministers, but they are most certainly NOT elected by UK voters.

What's that I hear? Was that a "sorry, you're right"? Louder, please

<Sigh>Life has taught me that any enterprise that involves a lot of middlemen never ends well.

ben501

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

@ben501, it's not true that I don't want an answer - I don't want an irrelevant and factually incorrect answer.

Sorry, don't have time now for a full catchup, but please let me know which part of my comment was 'factually incorrect'.

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

AFAIK there is no Constitutional requirement for a UK minister to be an MP, although most tend to be (right now, they all are).

That's what I said, isn't it?

ben501 wrote: »

UK ministers are generally (though not necessarily) selected from MPs who have been voted in by the electorate.

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

So your gripe is that UK ministers have typically been elected in public office, whereas EU Commissioners not. Am I getting this right?

No, couldn't be further from the truth. From the same post of mine quoted above:

(not saying one is better than the other. Simply answering you query)

kabayiri

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

...
Anyway, this is fun (and sad at the same time) : any more Brexit myths to debunk? The NHS bus doesn't need any more debunking, does it?

I didn't think much of the NHS bus angle tbh.

But...on a political campaigning level...it was a stroke of genius.

Osborne pitched into the campaign with high level figures of average household loss projections by 2030, should we Brexit. He may even have had a point, but it seemed a bit distant and aloof.

Along comes the bus, and it turns the campaign into the equivalent of a street brawl. It moved the debate back to a local level, and there was no doubt that the referendum was conducted against a background of prolonged local austerity. Hardly ideal timing.

SouthLondonUser

The bus thing simply proves that people are stupid, and telling stupid people what they want to hear pays off, even if it's a lie.

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The bus thing simply proves that people are stupid, and telling stupid people what they want to hear pays off, even if it's a lie.

Was it ever thus.
The weakness of democracies I suppose, no wonder you prefer political appointees to democratically accountable politicians.
You simply don’t trust yourself to vote in the right way.

kabayiri

Tromking wrote: »

Was it ever thus.
The weakness of democracies I suppose, no wonder you prefer political appointees to democratically accountable politicians.
You simply don’t trust yourself to vote in the right way.

It's weird how supposedly intelligent people in the Remain camp are now suggesting that the solution is to go and ask the 'stupid people' what they think again !

Now, *that's* stupid

SouthLondonUser

Sigh...

Remind me again how a UK Cabinet Minister is directly accountable to you? Remind me again how you have a direct say in who gets to be minister of what? Remind me again how electors are consulted when a PM decides to reshuffle the cabinet?

I am, yes, a strong believer in the merits of a written Constitution which sets explicit checks and balances among the powers of a democracy. I am a strong believer in a liberal democracy so structured to prevent the abomination of a tiranny of the majority.

For example, I believe has shown the limits of the unwritten Constitution of the UK. I will never understand how it makes sense that this country requires a qualified majority in the Commons to call an early election, but something as life changing as the Brexit referendum can be decided on a simple majority.

Also, the written Constitutions of many countries prohibit referendums on certain topics (tiranny of the majority, risk of populism etc etc), and rightly so.

BRB_in_2019

mayonnaise wrote: »

Now, next task for you and BRB 2019 (both 'new' posters, obviously ) ........ :whistle:

Hey, don't drag me into your playground-style spat.
If you want to pick on someone keep it to them.
Don't include me just because I'm reasonably new thank you very much.
Presumably YOU weren't a "new" poster once then and why the unnecessary wink emojii if you're not deliberately baiting new posters like me?

Inn the first few pages of this thread are a few other new posters.
Why didn't you do the same to them, Mayonnaise?



When will posters stop being "new " to you?
One year?
Two?
Five maybe? (unnecessary alert).