Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

phillw

lvader wrote: »

Strong disagreement, banter are all fine. Impugning people because of their gender or skin colour isn't.

I am not saying they were bad because they were white males, only that this is the demographics of the brexit rallies.

I'd say that most of what you call "strong disagreement and banter" here are actually not fine at all and worse than this imagined racism/sexism. I'm getting bored with leave supporters making inflammatory comments and then reacting with faux outrage at the predicable response.

BikingBud

Herzlos wrote: »

We can't agree on what Brexit is though, I agree we should deliver *something*, but a no deal is a terrible idea from a negotiating POV - it'll give all of the advantage to the EU and force us to accept anything to keep the braying mob happy.

I'm all for a no deal, purely as the fastest route into full EU membership.

So we can leave with your blessing thanks for that. But why is it going to give the EU any leverage? They need our business the same as we need some of theirs.

Herzlos wrote: »

Mays deal would let us move forward to the next stage, whilst avoiding most of the damage.

What damage? The perceived cliff edge? What do you envisage as stage 2 or 3 etc.

Herzlos wrote: »

The problem we have is that there's no majority for anything, there are various contradicting views with no-one backing down and no-one with enough influence to do anything.

Yes there is, there's a majority for leaving. No matter how many times we come back to it more voted to leave than stay!

Herzlos wrote: »

The only solution is another referendum and hope there's a majority for something. Even a GE isn't likely to fix anything and would be a proxy referendum at best.

Hope! A referendum for what? The vote was In or Out. We voted out and put the trust of the nation in Parliament to deliver. They passed the law and followed A50 protocol and now we have them all changing their colours. If that isn't turning you back on the hand that feeds I'm not sure what is.

lvader

phillw wrote: »

I am not saying they were bad because they were white males, only that this is the demographics of the brexit rallies.

I'd say that most of what you call "strong disagreement and banter" here are actually not fine at all and worse than this imagined racism/sexism. I'm getting bored with leave supporters making inflammatory comments and then reacting with faux outrage at the predicable response.

I'm not outraged at all, it's more offending to the people on the rallies that aren't of those demographics, have you thought about that? I don't need to be outraged to point that something that I feel is simply wrong.

Sailtheworld

BikingBud wrote: »

The vote was In or Out. We voted out and put the trust of the nation in Parliament to deliver. They passed the law and followed A50 protocol and now we have them all changing their colours. If that isn't turning you back on the hand that feeds I'm not sure what is.

You can't always get exactly what you want exactly when you want it. A life lesson that most learn before the age of five.

Conina

Herzlos wrote: »

Not that I'm a fan of agreeing with Triathalon, but when you see all of these pro-Brexit rallies, how many attendees aren't angry white men?

Most of them.

Conina

phillw wrote: »

I am not saying they were bad because they were white males, only that this is the demographics of the brexit rallies.

I'd say that most of what you call "strong disagreement and banter" here are actually not fine at all and worse than this imagined racism/sexism. I'm getting bored with leave supporters making inflammatory comments and then reacting with faux outrage at the predicable response.

No it isn't and I'm getting bored with remainers and their sweeping generalisations that they seriously believe are factual when they aren't.



There looks to be quite a cross-section there including some whose skin isn't white.

MaxiRobriguez

BikingBud wrote: »

Yes there is, there's a majority for leaving. No matter how many times we come back to it more voted to leave than stay!

I'm a leaver, the leave vote scraped a victory with talk of additional funding for public institutions and restoring UK democracy. What has transpired is that a deal which would maintain a sense of order won't go through parliament because the ERG won't vote for it, which leaves a no-deal exit as the default, which the Government are preparing for with emergency road closures, the army on the street etc. There's a majority for leaving and keeping all the benefits but that isn't a reality anymore.

There is no way in hell that a no deal Brexit vs remain in a second referendum would return the first option. It would still be close, but the probable 5% swing would result in an almost 60/40 remain victory.

The democratic thing to do now is to negotiate a deal in good faith with the EU and then put it to the people on whether they want to leave on those terms or change their minds. Nothing else is going to solve the conundrum we're in.

BikingBud

Sailtheworld wrote: »

You can't always get exactly what you want exactly when you want it. A life lesson that most learn before the age of five.

Yes we expect that most five year olds require advice and guidance it's part of growing up. But in terms of voting we have set the simple bar of being over 18 as then being capable to try and affect the way the country is run.

And unlike takedap I recognise this is not about what I want but what those people who voted in the referendum want. So why the intent now to discredit or demean those people that voted in the good faith that the elected representatives would deliver against those votes?

What is so bizarre about that as a principle, and delivering against that?

As Bercow keeps saying members in the House shall be heard. A real shame those that are behaving in an unedifying manner, shouting and screaming at each other so much, are forgetting those that legally cast a vote and should be also heard.

They are not getting a hearing and you wonder why the electorate doesn't trust Parliament.

It would be interesting if the nation could submit a vote of no confidence in Parliament. And don't say "GE" because we cannot initiate that process.

phillw

lvader wrote: »

I'm not outraged at all, it's more offending to the people on the rallies that aren't of those demographics, have you thought about that? I don't need to be outraged to point that something that I feel is simply wrong.

Why would the people on a rally who aren't white males be offended by a majority of white/males?

That sounds kinda patronizing.

BikingBud wrote: »

It would be interesting if the nation could submit a vote of no confidence in Parliament. And don't say "GE" because we cannot initiate that process.

That would be interesting, I'm not sure how MPs would feel about that. At the moment the opposition are like parents repeatedly stopping their children from drinking bleach.

The government could have had a queen's speech six months ago, but they held off because they wanted to use it as a tactic.

The government could have spent the last three years trying to negotiate and sell the result, but they didn't because they wanted to use it as a tactic.

The tactic has failed.

Calling for a GE as a solution is ironic, we had a GE in 2017. Why do you want to overturn the result of that?

BikingBud

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

I'm a leaver, the leave vote scraped a victory with talk of additional funding for public institutions and restoring UK democracy. What has transpired is that a deal which would maintain a sense of order won't go through parliament because the ERG won't vote for it, which leaves a no-deal exit as the default, which the Government are preparing for with emergency road closures, the army on the street etc. There's a majority for leaving and keeping all the benefits but that isn't a reality anymore.

And why would that be the case?

The fact that the politicians en-masse will not deliver what they accepted to.

Contingency planning, just like the planning that went in to cover the fireman's strike or the French dockers going on strike and other such avoidable incidents. All part of the normal process of governing.