Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Herzlos

LHW99 wrote: »

Cutting perhaps 3-5 DAYS off the time available, since Parliament would shut down for conferences anyway. We have had 3 years of it being discussed, 3 attempts to pass a negotiated deal which was rejected 3 times, and the EU is unwilling to change, a whole series of "indicative votes" that showed there was no majority for anything in particular - what exactly could have been achieved with an extra few days? There should be time for a vote of confidence in the Government, which seems about the only thing likely to move the whole process on - apart from just going on 31st October.

Sounds like the only option then is another extension and a general election?

ess0two

Arklight wrote: »

I don't disagree. I am pro-Remain but I don't think there's really any solution other than Brexit of some sort. However the type of Brexit is very much up for debate. Except it isn't because a far right Tory administration of privileged multi-millionaires - some of whom are openly racist, misogynistic liars, leading a party that is bankrolled by corporate vested interests, has dissolved it during the period they should be debating with it.

I don't know if you were driving to a prep school in your Daimler with the chauffeur in the front, but assuming you weren't, do you really think these people care about offering your daughter a better future? And, do you really think separating the UK from a political entity that while far from perfect, has enacted considerable legislation designed to protect her from people like them, is the best move possible?

You were doing well with first 2 lines...the rest is stereotyping and emotion, if the poster does drive a Daimler does it matter.

BikingBud

Arklight wrote: »

I don't disagree. I am pro-Remain but I don't think there's really any solution other than Brexit of some sort. However the type of Brexit is very much up for debate. Except it isn't because a far right Tory administration of privileged multi-millionaires - some of whom are openly racist, misogynistic liars, leading a party that is bankrolled by corporate vested interests, has dissolved it during the period they should be debating with it.

I don't know if you were driving to a prep school in your Daimler with the chauffeur in the front, but assuming you weren't, do you really think these people care about offering your daughter a better future? And, do you really think separating the UK from a political entity that while far from perfect, has enacted considerable legislation designed to protect her from people like them, is the best move possible?

Maybe part of your issue is the inability to assimilate the information you are provided. Where in Stingey's well written and even handed post did she mention a daughter?

In your rush to post an outpouring from your heart about the great wrongs of the world perhaps you assumed that incorrectly. How many other points do you assume to be one thing that fits you unconscious bias or miss completely in your attempts to be heard?

stingey

BikingBud wrote: »

Maybe part of your issue is the inability to assimilate the information you are provided. Where in Stingey's well written and even handed post did she mention a daughter?

In your rush to post an outpouring from your heart about the great wrongs of the world perhaps you assumed that incorrectly. How many other points do you assume to be one thing that fits you unconscious bias or miss completely in your attempts to be heard?

Bingo. This is the whole problem with Brexit. Assumptions when you make an opinion that you are a 'type' of person.

Arklight

BikingBud wrote: »

Maybe part of your issue is the inability to assimilate the information you are provided. Where in Stingey's well written and even handed post did she mention a daughter?

In your rush to post an outpouring from your heart about the great wrongs of the world perhaps you assumed that incorrectly. How many other points do you assume to be one thing that fits you unconscious bias or miss completely in your attempts to be heard?

I don't know, why don't you have a nice long think about that and answer it yourself? I think Brexit is a terrible idea, I have provided evidence as to why. Many times, all us enemies of the people remoaners have.

You think Brexit is a great idea. You can provide no evidence at all as to why, and have full confidence in a hopeless political party set up to represent the landed gentry to deliver it for you.

LHW99

Herzlos wrote: »

Sounds like the only option then is another extension and a general election?

Yes if a VoNC is passed, or perhaps just a drift out if not? The fixed term parliaments act seems to prevent anything else - and that is a law, not a convention.

Herzlos

ess0two wrote: »

if the poster does drive a Daimler does it matter.

His point is that the Tories will be looking out for the poster if they are rich, otherwise they won't.

LHW99 wrote: »

Yes if a VoNC is passed, or perhaps just a drift out if not? The fixed term parliaments act seems to prevent anything else - and that is a law, not a convention.

But Johnson doesn't need a VoNC to be passed to call a GE, this seems like a dangerous move in the hopes he'll lose the VoNC so that he can claim to be all for Brexit deal or not.


It's bold, sure, but it's risky.

lobbyludd

stingey wrote: »

Brexit has been crazy. For the past 3 years I've noticed a surprising number of revelations and also times I've started to actually agree with the Leave campaign . For a woman living in Scotland and growing up as a child of Thatcher and seen what she did to my country, I've had a strong belief that Scotland should be Independent and I campaigned ferociously in 2014. BUT I've found recently that there are opinions I can't bring together and I'm starting to agree with people who I've see for most of my life as the 'enemy' (Tories).

- The belief that Scotland is rich and strong enough Independent from the UK, but the Remain campaign telling us that Britain as a whole is too weak and too poor to be Independent from the EU.

- That Leave voters are 'white-van-driving/kuckle-dragging/Union-flag-waving/right-wing/racist idiots'. I know of doctors/solicitors/middle class people and many good hard-working/law-abiding people of all classes who voted leave. These people who truly believe that to give the future generations of this country a better life is to be out of the EU. Just the same as I believe to stop my kids experiencing the life I did growing up is to be out of the UK.

- We have to go with the majority in a democracy. This is had to be accepted by all Yes voters in 2014. The majority of the UK voted leave. It has to be accepted. The Withdrawal Agreement has been rejected 3 times by Parliament, we can't stay in limbo forever. Boris Johnson has been elected by a majority of the Conservative party, who have been elected by a majority of voters in the UK to form a government. This allows them to govern, suspend Parliament, call a GE etc, they are allowed to do this because they have been elected by a majority to do so. I have to agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg, it's either change the government or change the law.

- Twitter is not a place to find concrete opinion and is not a resemblence of what is happening in the world. Remain voters will see other Remain voters tweets and Leave voters will see Leave voter tweets. You will rarely see a difference of opinion due to algorithims and half the time you are shouting into a void. I found this because in 2016 I was seeing Remain tweets, probably due to by previous Scottish Independence tweets. It wasn't until AFTER the EU ref that I was talking to people and they were telling me how they were really feeling and it was not anything close to what I was seeing on Twitter.

Sorry for the long post, I have not posted my opnion on this, but I feel it's time we move on from this. We have had the referendem, given time for debate and now we need to move on. I think a GE before Brexit Day would just add fuel to the fire andis pointless. I would hazard a guess that the outcome would be the same, a Tory goverment.

This morning as we were driving to school we were listening to the radio and I was explaining to my kids what prorouging Parliament meant and I asked them for their opinions, my 10 year old said "I wish it was all over." I had to agree.

Twitter, comments sections and forums don't tend to foster nuanced discussions, they're more suited to arguments! there's been terrible behaviour and name calling on both sides. I voted remain, but have absolutely no love for the remain campaign. I still would prefer to stay in, and I believe most of of the issues we currently have are due, in my view, to domestic policy. The remain campaign was run appallingly, and I didn't vote remain because of what they said. I have family who voted both ways, none of them are thick, we do have different life experiences and live in different places. I do think we'll be Ok outside of the EU, but I believe it will be harder, and more expensive than it would otherwise have been, and for a country that hasn't really recovered from the effects of austerity that's going to be very hard on a lot of people. I don't imagine that rees-mogg etc are going to bear the brunt of that.

But we will leave, and soon, can't imagine what the deal if we get one will look like, with the time frame available I can only imagine a defined limited period of everything as usual but with no voting powers because we are out, there's no time to sort out anything else? and in fact if I was an EU member state I might think about having a collective whip round to get rid of us.

shaggydoo

MP Chris Leslie said on Sky that Parliament will probably sit next Friday (it wasn't supposed to) and the weekend - there is 3 days they've got back....and there is nothing to stop them sitting all night....


Now they just have to agree on something....

Tammykitty

Backbiter wrote: »

Gove on no-deal:

and (2 days before the referendum):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49165836

You do realise that Gove is talking about a trade deal which the EU won't discuss until we leave the EU and not a withdrawal agreement?


The withdrawal agreement is not a trade deal - it is an agreement that trade will continue and we will remain a member of the customs union etc, until such times as we get a trade deal in place - and if the EU won't agree a trade deal (what incentive do they have if we can't unilaterally leave the customs union etc?) the arrangements of the withdrawal agreement will continue indefinitely.