Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Zxcv_Bnm

melanzana wrote: »

Why would he? It is blatantly obvious to anyone with any brain that the Brexit plan was non existent and without any sketch of a plan.

of course

the state was for Remain

why would it give a sucker an even break? why would the state enable the development of a counter proposition to Remain when Leave is being set up to lose?

we now have Labour a Remain party led by a Leaver and the Tories a Leave party led by a Remainer

we have fidel castro trying to implement capitalism

Zxcv_Bnm

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The only point is realising that, if fake news are still being spread on the undemocratic nature of the EU, there really is no hope.

says the bloke who doesn't know the first thing about it and thinks the EU commission is like a cabinet

you're either a liar or a dupe

take your pick

neither's a good look

SouthLondonUser

Zxcv_Bnm wrote: »

So it's factually correct then, we agree on that

No – don’t put words in my mouth!

the EU is about irreversible political union because that's the faction running it, just like USSR elections were about "electing" only communists and no other communists were allowed

It’s one thing to say that you don’t agree with the key principles of the EU. But comparing it to the USSR is not just non-sensical, it’s shameful and intellectually dishonest! How on earth can you possibly compare a union of democratic countries to a dictatorship that murdered millions of people? You do realise you lose any credibility with these comparisons, don’t you?

the CAP, the CFP,

You have not explained why. Most importantly, you have not explained why the UK would be better off outside of the EU!

the euro

How is the euro relevant? Open your wallet – what notes do you see? Pounds or euros????

MIFID, MIFID 2, MAR,

Why? Was it better when commissions were bundled with other services and it wasn’t clear what you were really paying for?

the EU army

What EU army? Last I checked, there isn’t one!

it's run by a politburo of unelected nominees

MEPs are elected. EU commissioners aren’t, but, again, nor are British ministers. You are still to explain why you are fine with non-directly-elected British ministers, but have such an issue with non-directly elected EU commissioners.

Zxcv_Bnm

movilogo wrote: »

Same thing can be said about EU.

Remainers blindly assume that:


status quo = good = stay in EU
change = bad = leaving EU


If someone wants tea there is no point in trying to convince why he should drink coffee instead. People voted to leave EU, let us leave. Ask another vote few years later whether people want to join EU again and let that be.

Democracy should allow people to change minds but should not be used only when they want to change from Leave to Remain.

the only way to stay in the EU as it currently stands was to vote Leave

otherwise it's dissolution into Monnet's US of E

those were the options

SouthLondonUser

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Saying the eu has created peace is ridiculous, unless you assume that the only reason Germany has not thrown any tantrums lately is because it is currently running a good part of europe anyway, along with France.

As far as i am concerned it is NATO and the UN that have ensured there has been peace just lately.

I never said that the EU is the one and only reason that 'created' pace. My point is that the greater union and integration among European countries, which is one of the key principles of the EU, certainly contributed a great deal to peace on the continent.

As for the Nato, while countries like Estonia may feel safer from Russia because they are NATO members than because they are EU members (I won't argue with that), let me remind you that Greece and Turkey were both in the Nato, yet this didn't prevent Turkey's invasion of Cyprus and the resulting strain in Greek-Turkish relationships. I think Turkey temporarily withdrew its troops from Nato, but this doesn't change the point.

SouthLondonUser

Zxcv_Bnm wrote: »

https://www.euronews.com/2018/07/05/france-hopes-for-eu-corporate-tax-deal-by-mid-2019

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430504

So a proposal to harmonise taxes, proposal which may or may not become something tangible, is mistaken for the certainty that taxes will be set in Bruxelles with no input from member countries?

SouthLondonUser

Zxcv_Bnm wrote: »

says the bloke who doesn't know the first thing about it and thinks the EU commission is like a cabinet

Please explain what I have said which is incorrect, and why. You don't agree with my comparison that it can be thought of as a cabinet. Fine. But please explain what would be incorrect in what I have said, and why.

SouthLondonUser

Zxcv_Bnm wrote: »

If the EU commission decides it's to happen it will happen
nobody else has the power to block it
the commission nodding dogs and the council nodding dogs are all nominees who do as they're told
the parliament can legally be ignored

1) You are forgetting that the Commission isn't a group of technocrats chosen by a public exam on who speaks the best French. It's an expression of the democratically elected governments of each country

2) It's false. The Bolkenstein directive is the most important example I can think of of MEPs successfully blocking a legislation they didn't like till it reflected their amendments. It's a fact, and it goes right against the narrative you have been trying to push of a totally powerless and useless European Parliament.

movilogo

Whether we should have stayed in or left the UK is a life-changing political decision with far-reaching consequences for generations!!!

That is a subjective opinion. All these doom & gloom of no deal thing is pure scaremongering. Remainers continuously cite NHS bus thing yet they themselves see nothing wrong in spreading fake messages.

Staying in EU also has consequences for generations. House price unaffordable, getting a doctor's appoint requires 2-week waiting time, traffic gridlocked etc. etc.

If you disagree, let’s have a referendum on a 5% flat income tax rate

I'm up for it Let people decide and leave with consequences. One can't always get what he wants.

It has been proven EU is beyond reform. Cameron tried for long time.

Project Fear is like how ancient priests controlled people by their fear of God. If you don't do this, god will destroy you etc. etc.


BTW, don't see any wrong with populism. Why it is any worse than socialism?

Zxcv_Bnm

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

While the Nobel to the EU seemed a bit farcical to me, the statement that the EU was instrumental in ‘transforming **most** of Europe from a continent of war to a continent of peace’ is factually correct and undisputable.

it's a lie
NATO was responsible for peace in Europe

the tragedies you mention happened to countries not part of the EU.

nope, the wars have been among states not in NATO

It doesn’t have an explicit manifesto because its members are appointed by the democratically elected governments of the member states!

like the USSR politburo then. so what exactly are they appointed to do? what UK party has ever said "we'll appoint our nominee to do X"?

UKIP won the last EU elections in the UK.Why wasn't Farage our nominee to the EU Commission?

For the EU Commission to have an explicit manifesto, there would need to be an executive branch of the EU chosen more directly by the electorate and with less of a link to the national government. Is this what you would want?

yes, so you'd have parties contesting commission seats. the UK one and several others would be won by reforming eurosceptics

The EU Commission doesn’t have an explicit manifesto because it is an expression of the governments of each country

where and when did the UK government express what its nominee would do? how did it select its nominee? did it consider sceptics, reformists, or just europhiles?

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. Again, EU Commission Members are not voted directly by the electorate, just like no UK minister is. This doesn’t make UK ministers any less legitimate!!

you wish. I get that you want to be a serf.

False. Fake news. It’s a lie.
Look up the current structure: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019
You will clearly see the responsibility of each Commissioner.

swap them all around and nothing would change - they do what the unelected commission wants

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. A shadow cabinet is a UK tradition, which, correct me if I am wrong, is not codified in law and has no real power. Many democracies all over the world do not have an explicit shadow cabinet – this doesn’t make those countries any less democratic!!!

it makes them one party states. you want the EU to be a one party state
how about if 14 EU states nominated a neo Nazi
that be OK would it? of course not, nominees must agree with you

Brexiters should really make the effort to understand that there’s a big world out there, and that not all of it functions the exact same way you’re used to!

Remainers should educate themselves in what fake democracies have looked like - USSR, Germany pre WW1 - so they recognise one when they see it

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. It’s like saying there is no MP in Westminster advocating the overthrow of our Parliamentary democracy and the replacement of the rule of law with the rule of anarchy!

It's like saying there were no non-communists in the Soviet parliament because only communists are allowed. why should sovereignty not be repatriated?

False. On some matters, like new EU treaties, the vote of the European Parliament is non-binding. But not on all matters. For example, the European Parliament was instrumental in modifying the Bolkenstein directive on services; whether you agree with the directive is not the point, the point is that MEPs blocked its first iterations and were instrumental in modifying the text.

the commission can disregard MEPs if it chooses

Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant comparison! MEPs are elected directly and Commissioners are appointed by the democratically elected governments of each member state.

on what manifesto? er, none

It’s not quite like that!

it's exactly like that
how do I get to be PM> I win an election
how do I get to be on the EU commission? I get appointed