Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

adindas

Sailtheworld wrote: »

It's EU policy to adopt ISO standards as is where possible. This harmonises trade across the single market and, as you say, facilitates external trade. EN standards carry different regulatory weight - if an ISO standard is adopted and gets an 'EN' designation then it because the standard across the EU at that point.

Standards aren't really the biggest difficulty when it comes to trade.

Well that is one of the arch remoaners Herzlos is arguing in # 4606

Herzlos wrote: »

Or there are details you are missing / choosing to ignore. How do we handle diverging standards with no border?

LHW99

We can have whatever standards we like but a factory will have to prove it meets EU requirements if they wish to export.

As done for the PIP implants? All very well saying the founder comitted fraud, but what were the authorities (TUV Rheinland) doing to confirm the "proof" offered on materials and processes within that company?
Presumably very little, since they have had to pay compensation, which given their fees is unlikely to have caused much long term damage to their balance sheet IMO.

Sailtheworld

adindas wrote: »

Well that is one of the arch remoaners Herzlos is arguing in # 4606

OK - thanks for letting me know.

Sailtheworld

LHW99 wrote: »

As done for the PIP implants? All very well saying the founder comitted fraud, but what were the authorities (TUV Rheinland) doing to confirm the "proof" offered on materials and processes within that company?
Presumably very little, since they have had to pay compensation, which given their fees is unlikely to have caused much long term damage to their balance sheet IMO.

Is your point that despite standards and regulations frauds can still happen and enforcement can be imperfect? Who knew?

I suspect your point is more nuanced given my example was about third country imports of meat and you blew a hole through my argument by talking about a French manufacturer of breast implants and a German standards agency. I would've gone for the Romanian horse meat scandal to be honest. On topic and the miscreants are still foreign.

SouthLondonUser

Tromking wrote: »

I get the feeling that you are genuinely surprised at the fact that aggrieved voters factored in all their grievances when they voted in 2016.

Surprised? No, not in the slightest.

In fact, I have been saying all along that one of the key drivers for the Brexit vote is not a set of well-informed opinions on legal sovereignty, the merits of the constitutional structure of the EU , or a thorough cost-benefit analysis on the impact of immigrations, but rather a general sense of anger and frustration that skilled populist politicians have managed to channel against “the elites” (as if people like Jacob-Rees Mogg or Boris were not elites, ha…), Bruxelles and the metropolitan ‘citizens of nowhere’. Yet every time remainers point this out, there’s a Brexiter who will shout that no, people voted Brexit because they were sick of the lack of democracy in Bruxelles, or some other nonsense.

When people in towns where the largest employer is a car factory that exports a lot of its production to the EU vote to leave, that I will never understand...

Tromking wrote: »

I personally voted to give the political establishment a right good kicking, why should people like you enjoy first world infrastructure yet the mainline railway line in my part of the world disappears into the sea at regular intervals.
I voted to shatter your cosy little world, understand that please.

Oh, but I do get it, trust me, I do get it. What that says about you is a conclusion everyone can easily draw on their own…

There was a poster here (was it you? I don’t remember) who said he voted Brexit to stick it to the Scots. Oh, what a mature approach to the exercise of a fundamental right like the vote…

What the angry left-behind fail to understand is that it’s not the Londoners’ fault.
It’s not my fault if the world has changed and the industries which used to give work to entire areas have disappeared.
It’s not my fault if there are more jobs inside the M25 than in Blackpool.
It’s not my fault if bus tickets are more expensive in the North than in London (although saying that London’s infrastructure is first world is laughable – remember the Southern Rail fiasco a few years back?).

One might argue that politicians are at least partly to blame for these things – but a distinction should be drawn between politicians and ordinary people. The thought of voting to stick it to Londoners because politicians failed to act in the North’s best interest is at best childish.

Oh, and before you argue that more money should be given to the North and less from London, let me humbly remind you that London and a few other areas subsidise the rest of the country! Those who voted to “stick it to the Scots” because they think England subsidises Scotland should bear this in mind.

Also on the point of money, let me remind you that certain Brexit-voting areas like certain parts of Cornwall and Wales that have been showered with EU funds. If you want to argue it’s UK money because the UK is a net contributor, that would mean the money came mostly from London and a few other areas, and wouldn’t change the fact that those areas received way more than they contributed. I previously mentioned this – worth a read: https://blog.ted.com/social-media-is-a-threat-to-our-democracy-carole-cadwalladr-speaks-at-ted2019/
So the equation lack of investment = Brexit anger doesn’t always hold. Oh, it also doesn’t hold in Scotland – there are many deprived areas in Scotland that didn’t vote for Brexit.

LHW99

Is your point that despite standards and regulations frauds can still happen and enforcement can be imperfect?

Partly, but more that if a country can choose to get its "standards" approved in a range of countries (multiple standards test houses), then it becomes very difficult for a single organisation (eg the EU) to police because even with specified methods, there will be differences in how those methods are applied. I have come across several situations, where the test house chosen can depend on the perception (correct or not) that certain facilities will handle testing in a particular way likely to be more favourable to a given product.
IMO this is an example where the EU system falls down. There are others. You may say, well Brexit won't solve that - I would say we have been waiting long enough for the EU to solve it, leaving should give an opportunity to mandate testing of products to be sold in the UK to a UK test centre.
You mention the Romanian horse meat scandal, I would add BPA in baby's bottles, phthalates in toys, none of which have been solved by an EU standards system that has been in place for many years.

Moby

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Surprised? No, not in the slightest.

In fact, I have been saying all along that one of the key drivers for the Brexit vote is not a set of well-informed opinions on legal sovereignty, the merits of the constitutional structure of the EU , or a thorough cost-benefit analysis on the impact of immigrations, but rather a general sense of anger and frustration that skilled populist politicians have managed to channel against “the elites” (as if people like Jacob-Rees Mogg or Boris were not elites, ha…), Bruxelles and the metropolitan ‘citizens of nowhere’. Yet every time remainers point this out, there’s a Brexiter who will shout that no, people voted Brexit because they were sick of the lack of democracy in Bruxelles, or some other nonsense.

When people in towns where the largest employer is a car factory that exports a lot of its production to the EU vote to leave, that I will never understand...

Oh, but I do get it, trust me, I do get it. What that says about you is a conclusion everyone can easily draw on their own…

There was a poster here (was it you? I don’t remember) who said he voted Brexit to stick it to the Scots. Oh, what a mature approach to the exercise of a fundamental right like the vote…

What the angry left-behind fail to understand is that it’s not the Londoners’ fault.
It’s not my fault if the world has changed and the industries which used to give work to entire areas have disappeared.
It’s not my fault if there are more jobs inside the M25 than in Blackpool.
It’s not my fault if bus tickets are more expensive in the North than in London (although saying that London’s infrastructure is first world is laughable – remember the Southern Rail fiasco a few years back?).

One might argue that politicians are at least partly to blame for these things – but a distinction should be drawn between politicians and ordinary people. The thought of voting to stick it to Londoners because politicians failed to act in the North’s best interest is at best childish.

Oh, and before you argue that more money should be given to the North and less from London, let me humbly remind you that London and a few other areas subsidise the rest of the country! Those who voted to “stick it to the Scots” because they think England subsidises Scotland should bear this in mind.

Also on the point of money, let me remind you that certain Brexit-voting areas like certain parts of Cornwall and Wales that have been showered with EU funds. If you want to argue it’s UK money because the UK is a net contributor, that would mean the money came mostly from London and a few other areas, and wouldn’t change the fact that those areas received way more than they contributed. I previously mentioned this – worth a read: https://blog.ted.com/social-media-is-a-threat-to-our-democracy-carole-cadwalladr-speaks-at-ted2019/
So the equation lack of investment = Brexit anger doesn’t always hold. Oh, it also doesn’t hold in Scotland – there are many deprived areas in Scotland that didn’t vote for Brexit.

Brexit voters didn't think....they lashed out. I saw a Northern Ireland farmer brexiteer being asked why he voted brexit if he was adamant the border should remain open....he shrugged and said it's up to the politicians to sort it out but as Sir Ivan Rogers says in today's Guardian:-


'One of the most unpopular things I think I said to the prime minister in the autumn of 2016 is ‘You’ve made three commitments in good faith to different audiences, but they are not really compatible with each other. You have said to the Irish under no circumstances will a hard border be erected across the island of Ireland. You’ve said to the Democratic Unionist community under no circumstances will there be divergence from the rest of Great Britain. And you’ve said to the right of your own party that you’re heading out of the customs union. Well, you can’t do all three. You’ve got to choose two of the three.’ And I had the same conversation with then foreign secretary [Boris Johnson].'


How long will it take for reality to sink in for some people! We've always known the reality and the various border solutions mooted on here are just another version of English exceptionalism!
https://www.cer.eu/insights/theresa-mays-irish-trilemma

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

There was a poster here (was it you? I don’t remember) who said he voted Brexit to stick it to the Scots. Oh, what a mature approach to the exercise of a fundamental right like the vote…

Yes, that was me.
Why would I vote for the status quo, when I and my family are getting stiffed?
My two children have had considerably less spent on their education than in places like Scotland and social care in England has let and continues to let down my parents in their old age.
I'm not looking to appear mature when I vote, I'm seeking to get politicians to do as I want.
Regardless of whether we do eventually Brexit or not, I reckon they'll be listening a little more in the future.

SouthLondonUser

Tromking wrote: »

Yes, that was me.
Why would I vote for the status quo, when I and my family are getting stiffed?
My two children have had considerably less spent on their education than in places like Scotland and social care in England has let and continues to let down my parents in their old age.
I'm not looking to appear mature when I vote, I'm seeking to get politicians to do as I want.
Regardless of whether we do eventually Brexit or not, I reckon they'll be listening a little more in the future.

What does leaving the EU have to do with strictly domestic matters?

How does leaving the EU get "politicians to do as you want" ?

No one has a crystal ball, but the risk of a post-no-deal recession exists. Do you think you will be better off or worse off? Do you think it will make it easier or harder to give more money to the North? Or maybe that doesn't matter, because what's important is that you think you have shuttered Londonders' cosy little world (your words)?

You resent that Scotland spends more on education. What would you say if, applying your same logic, Londoners wanted to convert the M25 into a kind of federal state because they are fed up with subsidising the rest of the country? Note I am not advocating that - just wondering how you'd like a taste of your own medicine

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

What does leaving the EU have to do with strictly domestic matters?

How does leaving the EU get "politicians to do as you want" ?

No one has a crystal ball, but the risk of a post-no-deal recession exists. Do you think you will be better off or worse off? Do you think it will make it easier or harder to give more money to the North? Or maybe that doesn't matter, because what's important is that you think you have shuttered Londonders' cosy little world (your words)?

You resent that Scotland spends more on education. What would you say if, applying your same logic, Londoners wanted to convert the M25 into a kind of federal state because they are fed up with subsidising the rest of the country? Note I am not advocating that - just wondering how you'd like a taste of your own medicine

Just for the record, I live in South West England.
I don’t think I can be any clearer or more honest by saying that my motivation for voting Leave was part driven by a personal grievance I have over the unfair financial settlement that exists between the various nations and regions of the U.K. This clearly bothers you and you find it illogical but to be frank I don’t care.
I’m fully aware that only around three regions of the U.K. put more money in than they take out, but the last time I looked we are all part of a Union where the pooling and sharing of resources and risks should be allocated fairly. That is clearly not the case at the moment and it’s not surprising to me at least that the English outside of London voted as they did. The only one around here tasting their own medicine is you.
Eat my Brexit.