Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

SpiderLegs

Herzlos wrote: »

You actually think another referendum with a decisive result could be worse than... this?

Just answer the question. Since when has democracy required doing something irreversible that people don't want before they can be asked what they want? You wouldn't do it over a dinner choice, why do it over our economic future?

There's nothing fair about it, and had there been a clear result the first time I'd agree with you. The confirmatory referendum (suggested by both Rees-Mogg and Farage, no less) is an attempt to figure out what people actually want, now that we know what the options are.

We're at a complete stalemate until we can find a majority for anything.

If you Leavers (and Cogito, who's definitely not a leaver) weren't scared of losing, you'd be jumping on this (like Farage did until he realised he'd lost) as a sure fire way to end all the uncertainty and show the government that a hard brexit is what the people want.

I’m afraid you’re barking up the wrong tree there my good man or lady.

I’ve put forward my view that we should have a general election numerous times since I started reading the MSE Brexit extravaganza.
I’ve also suggested that IF there is a second referendum it should be based on Mays deal vs No Deal. That would seem a fairer way to ‘decide what Leave means’ and also uphold the previous result.

So I’m afraid im not scared at all. I would very much like there to be a resolution to this mess. I just don’t believe you resolve it by telling the winners that they are going to have to win all over again, purely because the losers are can’t cope with losing.

You do seem to be a little aggressive in your tone though. I don’t know why. Maybe you should relax a little instead of getting so worked up just because someone doesn’t think the same way you do.

Zero_Gravitas

I'm amused by the hypocrisy of the Tory brexiteers in the 1922 committee scheming to change the rules to have another vote because they don't like the result of a vote they had not 6 months ago...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if May resigns on Sunday just ahead of the announcment of the EU election results to divert attention from the expected Tory wipeout.

Herzlos

ess0two wrote: »

Simple really we were asked stay or leave....

We either leave with or without a deal, obviously we are a the point of not being able to cut a deal,so we leave without.

We were asked if we wanted to stay or leave, and we answered with a resounding dunno. We got a tiny majority for leave, but no majority for what that means. We could leave anyway with no deal (my preferred option), but since that's such a major change, what's wrong with asking the people to confirm what they mean / actually want?

ukcarper wrote: »

No, but I don't think we will get a decisive result

I think we will - this will bring out a lot of the "couldn't be bothered" voters and a STV should give a clear outcome for something. Now that the facts are out there (and being generally ignored), I think we'll do better than a 51.9/48.1 split.



If the people really do want the hardest of Brexits, then surely it's a slam-dunk?


I watched Farage say on the BBC news a while back that maybe we should have another referendum to get a clear majority and shut the remoaners up. I can agree with that - if you're so sure the people want to leave, prove it and you'll shut up most of the remoaners.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

We were asked if we wanted to stay or leave, and we answered with a resounding dunno. We got a tiny majority for leave, but no majority for what that means. We could leave anyway with no deal (my preferred option), but since that's such a major change, what's wrong with asking the people to confirm what they mean / actually want?





I think we will - this will bring out a lot of the "couldn't be bothered" voters and a STV should give a clear outcome for something. Now that the facts are out there (and being generally ignored), I think we'll do better than a 51.9/48.1 split.



If the people really do want the hardest of Brexits, then surely it's a slam-dunk?

The polls don't show that,. I fear you are making the same mistake parliament made 4 years ago. They were so confident that remain would win they agree to referendum and look where that has got us.

Herzlos

I don't mind so much what the polls say (though the trend is obvious), I'm happy with a clearer answer either way. As I said, if people are so adamant that no deal brexit is the will of the people, confirming it is no big deal?
I don't think a GE is the right vehicle because a GE covers a lot of issues and has lots of politics involved. We need to ask the question we want the answer to: what kind of brexit do you want?

I think there should also be a GE, potentially at the same time, but what I want most is a clear direction for brexit.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

I don't mind so much what the polls say (though the trend is obvious), I'm happy with a clearer answer either way. As I said, if people are so adamant that no deal brexit is the will of the people, confirming it is no big deal?
I don't think a GE is the right vehicle because a GE covers a lot of issues and has lots of politics involved. We need to ask the question we want the answer to: what kind of brexit do you want?

I think there should also be a GE, potentially at the same time, but what I want most is a clear direction for brexit.

I'm not sure the trend is obvious, I think it's pretty clear the country is still spit down the middle.

lisyloo

ukcarper wrote: »

No, but I don't think we will get a decisive result

Why is 50.1% not decisive enough for you?
The rules are a majority right which means > 50% so by definition that’s decisive.

ukcarper

lisyloo wrote: »

Why is 50.1% not decisive enough for you?
The rules are a majority right which means > 50% so by definition that’s decisive.

It doesn't seem to have been in last referendum. In my opinion the result of another referendum will not be much different to last one with a small majority either way. We will go though all the divisions and hate and end up back where we are now.

SpiderLegs

Herzlos wrote: »

I don't think a GE is the right vehicle because a GE covers a lot of issues and has lots of politics involved. We need to ask the question we want the answer to: what kind of brexit do you want?

I think there should also be a GE, potentially at the same time, but what I want most is a clear direction for brexit.

I’m not sure where you’ve been for the last three years but you must have missed the continual messages that brexit affects just about all areas. Economy, immigration, legal, education, health, defence ...etc

A GE is the perfect vehicle for addressing future policy across those areas. My god the number times people have said how we shouldn’t have put a question as complex as brexit into a binary referendum, yet all of a sudden the same thing is the de rigeur answer to everything.

How on earth we could have a referendum and a GE together with potentially conflicting answers I don’t know...

Arklight

Just gone to vote. Tory voting boomer area.

Older couple looking at the ballot paper as long as your arm scratching their heads.

Lady says, "I think we've only got one choice. We have to for the sake of our children."

Lib Dems going to do very well in this election.