Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

melanzana

UK relied on its Perceived Emprical Supremacy.

Did not work.

So could someone tell me why this happened without a sketch of a plan.

The GFA and the backstop will be end of this debacle.

BobQ

Herzlos wrote: »

% terms are all that matter. 1.4 million sounds like a big number, which is why Leave keep banging on about it, but if you divide anything 52/48 and don't label it then most people will struggle to tell which is bigger. Statistcally, 51.9% with a fairly normal 2% margin for error could be anywhere from 49.9% to 53.9%.

Put it another way if 1 person in 50 who voted leave had voted the other way the result would have been different. But that is not the issue. What matters is whether the choice they made then is the choice they would make now faced with the reality of the deal the government proposes to implement.

As someone who voted remain, suppose we had won. It was not clear to me what the remain option meant but I assumed based on the public pronouncements of the likes of Cameron and Rudd that this meant "carry on as we are now". If after that result Cameron had announced that this country was to join the Euro and support greater EU integration, I would have considered this a betrayal of my vote. Yet some Leave voters seem clear that this only ever meant no-deal and WTO terms.

phillw

BobQ wrote: »

Yet some Leave voters seem clear that this only ever meant no-deal and WTO terms.

Yeah, they are so riled up that they have forgotten what they thought they were voting for.

Nobody was suggesting WTO before the referendum, it's like the people who claimed to see footage of the first plane hitting the WTC tower on 9/11 even though amateur footage only became available later.

And then there is this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

But a statement on the council website posted on Friday said prior to the referendum said the county was reassured by the Leave side that withdrawing from the EU would not affect the funding already allocated by Brussels.

Leave campaigners also promised the county would not be worse off in terms of the investment it receives. “We are seeking urgent confirmation from Ministers that this is the case,” the statement added.

High on winning by a slim majority, the leave voters have forgotten what democracy is.

Tromking

The usual suspects on here still disappearing up their own jackseys trying to append their own Remain narrative to Leave voters motivations I see.
Especially like the comment that not allowing EU citizens resident in U.K. the right to vote in the referendum is an example of xenophobia. Reallly?

cogito

BobQ wrote: »

That was a referendum that measured popular opinion at an instance of time.

I accept that there are a large number of people who are obsessively in favour of leaving and also a large number of people who are obsessively in favour of remaining.

But there are many more who are not sure one way or the other. The Leave community cannot agree on whether they want a no-deal Brexit or a May Brexit or some other form of Brexit. In short it is impossible to give those that voted leave a Brexit that they voted for. If Parliament cannot agree on something, a public vote is the sensible way forward.

Those that do not want this are opposing democracy while wrapping themselves in the referendum being immutable and accusing others of being anti-democratic. I cannot see any other way of uniting the nation than saying this is the best deal we can achieve, do you want this or remain.

And what options would there be on the ballot paper? We already voted to leave so that’s one option that shouldn't be on it.

cogito

phillw wrote: »

Yes, if you come and contribute to society then of course you should have a say in how it's run. Can you give me any reason why they shouldn't?

The alternative is xenophobia. They didn't need to become UK citizens because they had freedom of movement, we let them vote in council elections but not national ones, seems discriminatory to me.

So because UK citizens can vote in council elections but not national ones in France, Germany and other EU countries, those countries are discriminatory and xenophobic. That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?

ben501

BobQ wrote: »

As someone who voted remain, suppose we had won. It was not clear to me what the remain option meant but I assumed based on the public pronouncements of the likes of Cameron and Rudd that this meant "carry on as we are now". If after that result Cameron had announced that this country was to join the Euro and support greater EU integration, I would have considered this a betrayal of my vote.

You didn't bother reading the leaflet issued by the government then?

The UK has secured a special status in the EU. The UK has kept the pound, will not join the euro

And yet while you would have considered that a betrayal, even though you didn't know about it;) you would be quite happy for other betrayals that don't fit your agenda?
Yes, I'm on about the one in that same government leaflet that you didn't read, that states

A once in a generation decision

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.

BobQ wrote: »

That was a referendum that measured popular opinion at an instance of time.


The Leave community cannot agree on whether they want a no-deal Brexit or a May Brexit or some other form of Brexit. In short it is impossible to give those that voted leave a Brexit that they voted for. If Parliament cannot agree on something, a public vote is the sensible way forward.

Those that do not want this are opposing democracy while wrapping themselves in the referendum being immutable and accusing others of being anti-democratic. I cannot see any other way of uniting the nation than saying this is the best deal we can achieve, do you want this or remain.

It's not up to the Leave community to agree anything. That job was handed to parliament as soon as the results were known.

Why do you think another public vote is sensible? What's the point? There would only be calls to ignore it/have another.

:rotfl:Sorry, but if you think ignoring the referendum result will unite the nation, you really must have a few screws loose.


A question for you, or any other remain supporting people who want the government to either just revoke Article 50, or play 'Best of 3/ Best of ???' until we get the right result.

Whenever the part about the government saying they will respect & honour the result is mentioned, I read comments saying things like 'They ignore things like that all the time'
In an attempt to convert me into believing that it won't be a

Theresa_May wrote:

betrayal of democracy

Please can I have some examples of where other binding (which is what we were told this would be) votes have been ignored or overturned?

I'm one of those who really couldn't give a damn. At the end of the day it ain't gonna make much difference to me personally. The problem is, for all the 'Whys' and 'What ifs', the fact remains that I still believe that it's a 'democracy' issue. Why bother voting again if the result could just be ignored?
I'm not on about opinion polls that are just to gauge sentiment, but if we're going ignore government polls that we don't like, why don't we just do as tommix suggests and adopt the Russian system?

Herzlos

Switzerland voids referendum after voters poorly informed:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/switzerland-referendum-result-overturn-supreme-court-brexit-eu-vote-a8866131.html

Brexiteers are always claiming we should be more like Switzerland.

gfplux

I can not understand this obsession with the past. I don’t like it but
WE ARE WHERE WE ARE
Britain has to solve the problem it has NOW.
Parliament should agree the withdrawal/transition/political understanding deal and move on to negotiating the trade deal as outlined in the political understanding with an EU27 who want to be friends.
Holding European elections will only widen the division in the country.
Leaving without a deal will mean trying to sit down to negotiate a trade deal with an angry and damaged EU27 and how do you think that will play out?
Britain in or out needs a good relationship with the EU as it makes economic sense.

phillw

Tromking wrote: »

Especially like the comment that not allowing EU citizens resident in U.K. the right to vote in the referendum is an example of xenophobia. Reallly?

Yes, really. If someone has lived here for twenty years and has been working and paying taxes then it seems only right to let them vote. If you're scared of letting them have a vote then you literally are scared of what people who are not from here would do, which is the definition of xenophobia.

You just lack awareness of your own prejudices. No amount of you rofl or lmao is going to change that.

gfplux wrote: »

Holding European elections will only widen the division in the country.

I disagree, these divisions are going to tear the country apart whatever happens. There are too many shy xenophobic leave voters & they aren't going to be happy with a close relationship with the EU. They've kept quiet for 40 years but now they smell their end game then it's going to be absolutely dreadful.