Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Malthusian

BikingBud wrote: »

Can you run me through these 2 comments and advise how I can therefore make a decision based upon truth?

Ok so basically philw is the only person in the world who is above all this, does not lie and is not a racist, and therefore you make the decision to do whatever he says. In this case vote Remain in a second referendum.

As has been previously discussed, if you annul the result of every vote where one or both sides told lies, you have a dictatorship.

philw wrote:

The only way we have of judging truth and lies is by how many people agree with the evidence.

That way is how you end up judging that Jesus is Lord and the world is flat. We have a much better way of judging truth and lies called objective reality. Unfortunately objective reality has shown very poor commitment to the EU project, which makes objective reality a big fat racist piece of gammon.

Tromking

phillw wrote: »

.
What I think of the rise of the far right is that it's as scary as trump or brexit,

And yes I'm lumping them all together, because whether you like it or not they are linked. With the groups communicating with each other, sharing tactics and funding etc.

As a remain voter I chose to pick the side which I believed in and fight the rise of the far right in the EU from the inside.

Anyone who argues we should leave the EU because of the rise of the far right, has chosen to fight on the side of the far right.

I fear the democratic deficit in the EU may very well install a far right/populist version of Messrs.Tusk and Juncker in the not too distant future anyway. It doesn't take too many more populists being elected as national leaders to tip the balance and couple that with the possible growing rump of fascists in the European Parliament, then liberal Europe is in peril.
I personally don't see how you as an individual can fight the growing scourge of fascism when you and your fellow EU citizens can't directly elect EU leaders. What price a President Orban of the EU Commission in the future.
You beginning to see how important democracy is in European insititutions yet?

BikingBud

phillw wrote: »

Are you serious?

One comment is about individuals telling lies.

The other is about asking a question that is based on facts agreed by a group of people.:rotfl::rotfl:The only way we have of judging truth and lies is by how many people agree with the evidence. :rotfl::rotfl:A good way of ensuring that only the truth is being told, is to make it that leave and remain supporting mps have to agree with what is being said on both sides.

The problem with the referendum is peoples votes were guided by people who lied about what their vote would mean, which invalidates the result. I'd prosecute anyone who lied, whether it was leave or remain. There was a huge scale of campaigning done for leave in poor areas where they were told out and out lies & the targeted facebook adverts, but because it was done in private there was no opportunity to disagree with them. The leave argument seems to be "well you should have gone out and told more lies to get people to vote"

By making the vote explicit, then at least people will know what they are voting for. Easiest negotiation ever, apparently not.

I personally think we should have negotiated a trial separation and let the docks seize up. Give boris some time to go down there and waive some union jacks, as that is all he is actually capable of.

Nope still don't get it.

Politicians lips moving - lying

Politicians lips not moving, keeping quiet so as to avoid lying.

You even admit that yourself that everybody lies ,hence my query how do we know what the truth is if everybody is lying?

Your piece about the number of people that believe the evidence is absolutely flawed because everyone has lied. Unless of course:
https://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2028667417?playlistId=tt1058017&ref_=tt_ov_vi
:rotfl::rotfl:

Herzlos

Not all lies are equal. Some people have morals, whilst I wouldn't trust Boris Johnson to tell the time.

The facts can often be determined by looking at the evidence, science or the actual documents in question.

Distinguishing fact from fiction is difficult though.

I'd be all for some independent body that can penalise politicians for lying, kind of like the ASA.

kingstreet

In commercial partnerships, the US is asking the UK to “discourage politically motivated actions to boycott, divest from, and sanction Israel.”

Should this be acceptable in any "trade" deal?

Arklight

Rees-Mogg, erstwhile darling of the ultra Right, has enraged ultra-Right wingers by scrambling to offload the only principle he had been pretending to have and today saying he would likely now vote for May's deal. I don't know how far Right you have to be to find Rees-Mogg to the left of you, but it has upset them.

As plebescites are all the rage lets just ask the plebs again.

May's deal, no deal, or cancel Brexit.

Put your money where your mouth is Brexiters.

phillw

Malthusian wrote: »

Ok so basically philw is the only person in the world who is above all this, does not lie and is not a racist, and therefore you make the decision to do whatever he says. In this case vote Remain in a second referendum.

Who says I don't lie? I'm not lying here, because there is no advantage.
All humans are inherently xenophobic, it's a survival instinct that at one point was advantageous as there were no rule of law to protect you etc.

Some of us are aware of it and override it, some of us don't. If you aren't consciously doing so, then it's safe to say that you make discriminatory decisions.

BikingBud wrote: »

Politicians lips moving - lying

Politicians lips not moving, keeping quiet so as to avoid lying.

Right, it's a funny joke but some politicians lie more often than others. Some are just deluded.

BikingBud wrote: »

You even admit that yourself that everybody lies ,hence my query how do we know what the truth is if everybody is lying?

You weigh the evidence and then if you still can't tell, just pick the side that stands for what you believe.

If you want to share prosperity with everyone no matter what country they happen to be born in then vote remain, if you want to raise the drawbridge and poke refugees back into the sea "where they deserve" with pointy sticks then vote leave.

Hating the EU is actually more damaging to you than anything the EU has ever done. None of the anti rhetoric makes any kind of sense if you analyse it logically, there is something more complex driving the thought processes.

Tromking wrote: »

I personally don't see how you as an individual can fight the growing scourge of fascism when you and your fellow EU citizens can't directly elect EU leaders.

I can't directly elect UK leaders either, in both the UK and the EU the leader is chosen by those who are directly elected. As an individual it's hard to do anything with democracy, you just have to accept that one mans growing scourge is another persons mate nige. You can get together with others and protest and petition, but it doesn't always work.

Tromking wrote: »

You beginning to see how important democracy is in European insititutions yet?

Which European Institutions do you believe aren't democratic or at least less democratic than our equivalents?

I'm not for staying in the EU at all costs, currently it's a benefit to us being in the EU. Which is why I don't support leaving the EU at all costs, like we are doing now.

BobQ

lisyloo wrote: »

Statutory instrument needs to be agreed by both houses this week.

Actually no. The date was changed by May in Brussels under international law. Obviously if the SI did not go through it would cause confusion with UK law.

BobQ

lisyloo wrote: »

Well she answered that one didn’t she !

Sorry, you know of a question she answered recently? Do tell more.

Thrugelmir

phillw wrote: »

I can't directly elect UK leaders either, in both the UK and the EU the leader is chosen by those who are directly elected.

Corbyn remained despite a clear unequivocal vote of no confidence.