Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

phillw

smipsy wrote: »

one question that no one seems to be able to give a sensible answer is how is UK getting a better deal outside of the bloc

1. The belief we will slash safety testing, workers rights, food standards.

2. The believe that "stupid foreigners" in the EU can't negotiate as good as us, with other "stupid foreigners".

Point 1 is possible, although it would have a direct detrimental effect on us and also promote things like child/slave labour in other countries etc (which I personally believe has a negative moral effect on us).

Point 2 is deluded, the politicians who think it's possible have managed to win over half the UK but they haven't done as well with their peers in parliament. It's safe to assume that they will have as much of a problem doing deals with their foreign peers. They are in effect disproving themselves. Unfortunately the people they convinced are too entrenched and refuse to see it & have to maintain the idea that the EU is evil or their reality will collapse.

MPs are stuck between a rock and a hard place, there is an incoming shift towards EU membership and so they can't rely on leavers to keep them in power & they no longer know who to keep happy. The ones who vote on their own conscience of what is best for the UK, rather than what is best for them directly, know that EU membership is best & will pursue that or something that looks like that.

It's kinda weird that half the country is fearcefully behind a minority of elite politicians pushing their own agenda to increase their personal fortunes, but this is the UK. People can be talked into anything, we can't even be trusted to name a boat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boaty_McBoatface. People thought more about that boat than what voting leave meant.

mayonnaise

Group of white male brexiteers visiting Mrs. May at Chequers last weekend nicknamed themselves 'Grand Wizards'.

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/grand-wizards-brexit-mps-nickname-erg-ku-klux-klan-reaction/

The title Grand Wizard was formerly associated with the leader of white supremacist terrorist organisation the Klu Klux Klan.

Tells you all you need to know about brexit, doesn't it?

Cakeguts

phillw wrote: »

I believe you're making that up.

What I think of the rise of the far right is that it's as scary as trump or brexit,

And yes I'm lumping them all together, because whether you like it or not they are linked. With the groups communicating with each other, sharing tactics and funding etc.

As a remain voter I chose to pick the side which I believed in and fight the rise of the far right in the EU from the inside.

Anyone who argues we should leave the EU because of the rise of the far right, has chosen to fight on the side of the far right.

And leave lied is important here, because I think some leave voters were tricked into fighting for the far right & they wouldn't if the campaign had been open and honest about it's intentions.

The problem that I see with the Leave lied thing is that Remain lied as well so both as bad as each other but what no one will ever be able to prove is that those lies caused voters on either side to vote as they did and people who keep mentioning it make me think that they can't think of any reason for staying in the EU other than some politicians lied. I expect there are politicians in the EU that lie as well so they have just given themselves a good reason for leaving.



It makes me think that if anyone found any EU politician who had lied all those Remain voters who voted Remain because the Leave campaign lied will change sides and vote Leave and none of that has anything to do with EU policies.

Cakeguts

I posted a question yesterday on a Facebook propaganda Remainers site. It was about the far right. None of the people who said that they voted Remain made a comment about it. All reactions came from people who had voted Leave. The people who voted Remain were too busy quoting from the Remain propaganda cult leaflet of answers. I really don't think that they had done any research into what is happening politically in the EU so basically they have voted to continue membership of a club that they know nothing about.

phillw

Cakeguts wrote: »

The problem that I see with the Leave lied thing is that Remain lied as well so both as bad as each other

If that is the problem you see, then you're not even trying to look at the problem. Whether "they are both as bad as each other" is irrelevant.

Remain lied and admitted it, remain chose some figures which are a grey area.

1. You can't compare the two
2. It's not a popularity contest.

Cakeguts wrote: »

but what no one will ever be able to prove is that those lies caused voters on either side to vote as they did

You can easily do that. All you need to do is lay out the truth as it stands now & ask the people what they think

Cakeguts wrote: »

and people who keep mentioning it make me think that they can't think of any reason for staying in the EU other than some politicians lied.

Well again your thought processes are wrong. I want to stay in the EU because freedom of movement of people, goods & capital is good for our economy and everything will have long term negative effects.

Cakeguts wrote: »

I expect there are politicians in the EU that lie as well so they have just given themselves a good reason for leaving.

No, only your distorted thought process would come up with that. Everyone lies, it's part of life.

Cakeguts wrote: »

It makes me think that if anyone found any EU politician who had lied all those Remain voters who voted Remain because the Leave campaign lied will change sides and vote Leave and none of that has anything to do with EU policies.

You are a good example of why democracy is flawed.

Cakeguts wrote: »

I posted a question yesterday on a Facebook propaganda Remainers site. It was about the far right. None of the people who said that they voted Remain made a comment about it. All reactions came from people who had voted Leave. The people who voted Remain were too busy quoting from the Remain propaganda cult leaflet of answers. I really don't think that they had done any research into what is happening politically in the EU so basically they have voted to continue membership of a club that they know nothing about.

Unless you post a link we can't tell whether you are just seeing what you want to see or not. From the way you write, I could hazard a guess.

The "remain propaganda cult leaflet of answers" could just be true things that are inconvenient to your view point for example.

Your "research into what is happening politically in the EU" could just be biased propoganda, there is plenty of that which is posted leavers (even leave voting MPs) that is provably untrue.

Some of us don't want democracy to be replaced with "whoever tells the most compelling lie, wins".

mayonnaise

Cakeguts wrote: »

I posted a question yesterday on a Facebook propaganda Remainers site. It was about the far right. None of the people who said that they voted Remain made a comment about it. All reactions came from people who had voted Leave. The people who voted Remain were too busy quoting from the Remain propaganda cult leaflet of answers. I really don't think that they had done any research into what is happening politically in the EU so basically they have voted to continue membership of a club that they know nothing about.

What an interesting story you made up there.

BikingBud

phillw wrote: »

You can easily do that. All you need to do is lay out the truth as it stands now & ask the people what they think.

phillw wrote: »

No, only your distorted thought process would come up with that. Everyone lies, it's part of life.

Can you run me through these 2 comments and advise how I can therefore make a decision based upon truth?

Filo25

It's funny watching the lightbulb slowly coming on in the DUP's head that they should never have supported Brexit in the first place, but its too late to backdown now.

phillw

BikingBud wrote: »

Can you run me through these 2 comments and advise how I can therefore make a decision based upon truth?

Are you serious?

One comment is about individuals telling lies.

The other is about asking a question that is based on facts agreed by a group of people.The only way we have of judging truth and lies is by how many people agree with the evidence. A good way of ensuring that only the truth is being told, is to make it that leave and remain supporting mps have to agree with what is being said on both sides.

The problem with the referendum is peoples votes were guided by people who lied about what their vote would mean, which invalidates the result. I'd prosecute anyone who lied, whether it was leave or remain. There was a huge scale of campaigning done for leave in poor areas where they were told out and out lies & the targeted facebook adverts, but because it was done in private there was no opportunity to disagree with them. The leave argument seems to be "well you should have gone out and told more lies to get people to vote"

By making the vote explicit, then at least people will know what they are voting for. Easiest negotiation ever, apparently not.

I personally think we should have negotiated a trial separation and let the docks seize up. Give boris some time to go down there and waive some union jacks, as that is all he is actually capable of.

movilogo

I personally think we should have negotiated a trial separation and let the docks seize up.

The establishment was 110% sure that Remain would win. Hence they made no plan for Leaving.

Don't blame the public. It is our MPs who are at fault. Even EU is not at fault. EU clearly said if you don't agree you leave without a deal.

It is our MPs who want to leave and still enjoy EU facilities.

If parliament planned for No Deal from 2016, it would not have been this mess.