Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

ukcarper

phillw wrote: »

What lie were they deceived by then? Or did they make it up themselves?

I think it's important that we know.

This is your problem you seem to think that all leave voters are stupid, there is not much black and white in the whole debate which you seam unable to grasp or admit that.

Brown_Bear

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The seeds of WW2 were sown on the back of the oppression imposed following WW1. Many years later. But the issues festered away.
..

True.
which is probably why the victorious allied countries cancelled the German govt debt post WW2 - ie a kind of financial reset. (and the fact that Germany had no real means to pay reparations as its industrial infrastructure was damaged).

Interesting lesson though - if your debtor is also your (future) trading partner.

But Germany did lose land etc to Poland. Also forfeited people - as workers were considered an asset then, rather than a liability today. (Obviously labour is still an asset - but the public are now too brainwashed to realise it).

Brown_Bear

phillw wrote: »

The percentage of immigrants who were involved

A lot of brits would do that if they thought they'd get away with it and it wasn't any effort.

e.

Actually, I remember the British thing to do was to steal cars and drive them over the border to Southern Ireland to be used / sold.

Same trick done in Cyprus across the Green Line.

The combination of borders and driving on the left has long benefited the British criminal...

kabayiri

phillw wrote: »

The red bus signifies the lie that there would be a brexit dividend.
...

Maybe they believed that there would be a brexit dividend.

It wouldn't be the first time a bunch of political players got carried away with a set of beliefs.

Didn't Gordon Brown believe he had put an end to boom & bust? (shortly before the biggest bust for many years)

Was he also telling lies? Or maybe he believed a new prosperity had been found.

Arklight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

But Gibraltar is not "occupied" by the British. It was ceded to Britain IN PERPETUITY under the Treaty of Utrecht, confirmed by thr Treaty of Versailles and the Treaty of Paris. It has been British for a greater period of time than it was Spanish for.

If Spain are so keen to take back Gibraltar, are they going to give Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco? It seems very strage that when Morocco became independant they refused to allow them those two enclaves, makes you wonder what they are hiding there

Gibraltar was captured by the British in 1704, they attempted to retake it and failed, it was then part of the peace settlement after the Anglo-Dutch alliance defeated Philip V in the War of the Spanish Succession. It was hardly a voluntary gift to the British. It marked the end of Spain's control of the Mediterranean and the beginning of the decline of their empire and has been a sore point for the last 300 years.

Anyway, whatever. The weaker power will kowtow to the stronger one. Realpolitik will win 10 times out of 10 which is why the Brits are going to struggle to maintain anything other than nominal control of Gibraltar and why Morocco is stuck with the Spanish for the foreseeable future.

Brown_Bear

Arklight wrote: »

Gibraltar

The weaker power will kowtow to the stronger one. Realpolitik will win 10 times out of 10 which is why the Brits are going to struggle to maintain anything other than nominal control of Gibraltar .

You're right that Brexit potentially gives the Spanish an advantage.
But I think you're forgetting one thing...

The Americans.
The USA shares intelligence with the UK - but less so the Spanish.
I think the USA would prefer the UK to control Gibraltar, rather than the Spanish.
And the USA generally gets what it wants in such matters.
Probably the same reason UK still has SBAs in Cyprus.

cogito

Arklight wrote: »

Gibraltar was captured by the British in 1704, they attempted to retake it and failed, it was then part of the peace settlement after the Anglo-Dutch alliance defeated Philip V in the War of the Spanish Succession. It was hardly a voluntary gift to the British. It marked the end of Spain's control of the Mediterranean and the beginning of the decline of their empire and has been a sore point for the last 300 years.

Anyway, whatever. The weaker power will kowtow to the stronger one. Realpolitik will win 10 times out of 10 which is why the Brits are going to struggle to maintain anything other than nominal control of Gibraltar and why Morocco is stuck with the Spanish for the foreseeable future.

You've unintentionally pointed out the problem with the WA. Most treaties and agreements contain a clause that permits one of the parties to opt out. The Treaty of Utrecht didn't so Spain is stuck with the loss of Gibraltar unless and until the UK hands it back.

The WA has no clause by which the UK can abrogate it so if we signed it we would be stuck with it until the EU agrees to release us. We would have to be bonkers to accept it.

Takedap

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Amended for you. Not a Pic'n'Mix where you can choose what sweeties you want. There's a bag on the table that is the conclusion of hours of talks. Take it or leave it. Leave it risk the wrath of the UK electorate.

Agreed that there is a "deal" on the table. The problem is the "Take it or Leave it" part. The PM has unilaterally decided that her deal must be the only show in town.



Saying that this deal is better than no deal is like saying that a punch in the face is better than a kick in the groin.



Hobson's choice isn't really a choice at all.

Takedap

phillw wrote: »

I'm not saying that all leave voters lack a concept of money, only the ones that voted because of the "£350 million a week". Can you suggest a way of putting that in a way that would achieve something?

It's the size of the numbers that is incomprehensible to most people. Million; Billion; Trillion. It's just one letter isn't it?


I had this example pointed out to me which I find helpful.



A Million seconds is roughly 11.5 days


A Billion seconds is over 31 years


A Trillion seconds is over 31,000 years


(NB, the national debt is measured in Trillions :eek:)

phillw

ukcarper wrote: »

This is your problem you seem to think that all leave voters are stupid, there is not much black and white in the whole debate which you seam unable to grasp or admit that.

The problem with you is that you don't even read or understand the point I make.

I didn't say all leave voters are stupid, for a start not all leave voters made their choice on an imagined brexit dividend. There are many reasons why some people were unable to see through the lie. Making poor choices doesn't make someone stupid, but when you refuse to recognise those poor choices then you are in denial.

Takedap wrote: »

It's the size of the numbers that is incomprehensible to most people. Million; Billion; Trillion. It's just one letter isn't it?

Not only that, saying £18 billion a year seems less. 350 is bigger than 18 and saying we pay that every week multiplies it. I can't find anything to say that we actually make weekly contributions, I don't think it's a coincidence that the numbers were chose for maximum manipulation.

Throw in NHS and "Our" for bonus points.

I think they were despicable for doing it, but I recognise their skill.