What vehicles can be driven on the road just on a car driving licence?

Ganga

Bigphil1474 wrote: »

Ganga, not sure why you quote my response in red, given the previous sentence says the employer might end up being locked up. In reality, enforcing authorities take the easy route, and it's easier for companies to plead guilty if their basis of plea (using their expensive solicitors) means they won't get locked up, or the controlling mind of the company is difficult to link directly to any incident. If an employee causes a serious accident, they are automatically linked to that accident, although not automatically prosecuted . And you are incorrect, you do not need an operators license, you just have to be able to demonstrate you've had sufficient training. An operators license is the easiest way to prove that.


OP, #12 says it all really. If you are stopped by the police, you would have to demonstrate you're covered to drive the vehicle on the road. If you don't know, then how can you prove to the police. I'd definitely be asking for formal training on that type of truck if I was you.

In the case of this person,being told by the COMPANY just get on and drive it i am sure in court the directors would end up in prison if people were killed.
As for an operators licence,although not compulsery try getting a job on any of the major contractors sites without one.

Insert_Nut

Car_54 wrote: »

As Andy L has pointed out above, your post-1997 licence allows you to drive vehicles up to 3.5 Tonnes gross mass. The JCB is about three times that mass, so you cannot drive it on the road!


No need to call the DVLA.

The employer told me that the machine is the same as a tractor and that you can drive a tractor on a car licence from age 17 I think he said.


I looked at the government website with the extension guidance / agricultural-vehicle-licences-and-fuel (sorry but i still can't link as a new member here) and scrolling down there under "Medium-sized vehicles with or without trailers" the way I understand it says that I can't drive this machine on the road


However when I scroll further to "Other categories" it says agricultural tractors (which reminds me of the employer saying they're the same as tractors) on category F - which I have.


So when I'm getting from the left that I can't drive and from the right that I can drive and then I'm seeing pages like the link I just provided which as I read it and try to understand it & my understanding says one minute you can and the next you can't


you can understand my confusion.


I'd like to be able to do it as it would just save a whole lot of grief at work ... but not if it's illegal.

Scrapit

Er on the side of caution, it's not clear so don't do it. Gaffer wants you to do it, gaffer should sort it.

headpin

If you have not been trained on this particular piece of plant you will be in breach of the provisions contained Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and the various Regulations made thereunder especially those relating to excavators. And your employer will be liable too for allowing you to operate it and not providing the appropriate training. HSE guidance for driving excavators states:

" Drivers: should be trained, competent and authorised to operate the specific excavator. Training certificates from recognised schemes help demonstrate competence and certificates should be checked for validity;"

And when using a signaller should also be utilised (what many of us still refer to as a banksman).

Your employer should carry out risk assessments and provide method statements and safe systems of works for all of the operations that the excavator will be utilised for. These should be made available to whoever operates the plant and should be complied with.

Do not be pressured by an employer who does not undertake these basic functions. These are dangerous items of plant and can and do kill people frequently. The HSE will take a dim view I find they undertake an inspection and do not find evidence that ll of the requirements have been complied with. Do not expose yourself to potthe myial prosecution or worse if your employer does not even seem to provide basic training.

My experience is that when I have purchased excavators, diggers, telehandlers, lift trucks and the like is that most suppliers or manufacturers will generally provide appropriate certified training to the prospective operators.

Insert_Nut

I think as has been advised, I should get in touch with DVLA and ask them again in writing. Tell them exactly how the machine will be used, give them my licence number, tell them what training I've had and then see what they say. If they respond with the green light then great stuff and i'll go ahead no problem. If they say I can't then I can't.


I have a funny feeling they'll not really answer the question directly though and i'll remain in confusionland.


With the forklift training, I've never been on a lengthy course that I've heard of others going on. I was driving them for years on the basic training of - right then youngster, this lever does this, that pedal does that now mind how you go.
Obviously the more you put in time the more competent you get & the less damages you cause.
As I had been driving so long I was put on 1 day 'refresher' courses. I think I've had 3 in my time. I believe a certificate is produced at the end of them, though I've never seen it, and this goes in my file at my workplace.


I've had nothing to my knowledge on the JCB machine other than what I guess was the salesman / rep showing us what does what and deciding we are competent. For example, I have permission to teach new staff how to use the machine as I am considered to be a competent user.


I understand that you can't drive a car for 20 years with no certificate and then be considered ok since you've been doing it for a while, but I don't know if JCB work / plant machinery is different or not since there seems to be different laws for different things.

Car_54

Insert_Nut wrote: »

I think as has been advised, I should get in touch with DVLA and ask them again in writing. Tell them exactly how the machine will be used, give them my licence number, tell them what training I've had and then see what they say. If they respond with the green light then great stuff and i'll go ahead no problem. If they say I can't then I can't.


I have a funny feeling they'll not really answer the question directly though

They won't answer because most of what you're asking is nothing to do with them.


DVLA are only concerned with driving the vehicle on the road (which was your original question). Specifically, does your existing driving licence cover the JCB in question?


Your training and/or qualifications to use the JCB to dig holes etc.is an entirely separate matter. The Health and Safety Executive is probably the best starting point.

Insert_Nut

Car_54 wrote: »

Your training and/or qualifications to use the JCB to dig holes etc.is an entirely separate matter. The Health and Safety Executive is probably the best starting point.

I'm not sure whether this is relevant but this is a conversation I had with someone years ago when we mentioned the term "JCB". Their view was digging holes and they started talking about 'back actors' or whatever it was they said to me. Over my head anyway but then they had about 40 years experience at the time of numerous plant machinery, had certificates as long as you like and I had about 5 years experience at the time with no certificates.


The use of this would be like you said - driving from A-B on the road and then while at B driving the bucket in to piles of rubble to load a vehicle which im fairly sure parks on the road. I could be wrong but I don't think they actually pull off the road in to point B, I think they stay on the road whereas you're off the road at point B. That's what I've witnessed from afar.

Andy_L

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tractors-regulations-on-use/tractors-and-regulatory-requirements-a-brief-guide-september-2017#driver-licensing

"3. Driver licensing
Agricultural tractors require a category F licence to drive on the public road...

Category F licence only applies to tractors used primarily for agriculture or forestry. Therefore, if you wish to drive a tractor that is not used primarily for agriculture or forestry, you need to hold a goods vehicle licence. That is category C1E for combinations with a maximum authorised mass (MAM) up to 12 tonnes (8.25 tonnes if licence was obtained before 1997) and CE for combinations with MAM over 7.5 tonnes (8.25 tonnes for pre-1997 licences)."

Is the JCB being used "primarily for agriculture or forestry"?

Scrapit

Insert_Nut wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this is relevant but this is a conversation I had with someone years ago when we mentioned the term "JCB". Their view was digging holes and they started talking about 'back actors' or whatever it was they said to me. Over my head anyway but then they had about 40 years experience at the time of numerous plant machinery, had certificates as long as you like and I had about 5 years experience at the time with no certificates.


The use of this would be like you said - driving from A-B on the road and then while at B driving the bucket in to piles of rubble to load a vehicle which im fairly sure parks on the road. I could be wrong but I don't think they actually pull off the road in to point B, I think they stay on the road whereas you're off the road at point B. That's what I've witnessed from afar.

The "back actor" is the the diggy bit at the back. Sounds like you use the loading shovel bit at the front.
The fact that you aren't aware of this mean the PUWER regs and HSAWA aren't being obeyed. The RTA probably is though:
Exempted large goods vehicles

If you hold a full category B (car) driving licence you can drive a number of large agricultural vehicles:

a goods vehicle propelled by steam

any road construction vehicle used or kept on the road solely for the conveyance of built-in road construction machinery (with or without articles or materials used for the purpose of that machinery)

any engineering plant other than a mobile crane

a works truck

an industrial tractor

an agricultural motor vehicle which is not an agricultural or forestry tractor

a digging machine

a goods vehicle which, in so far as it is used on (public roads):

only in passing from land in the occupation of a person keeping the vehicle to other land in the occupation of that person

is not used on (public roads) for distances exceeding an aggregate of 9.7 kilometres in any calendar week

goods vehicle, other than an agricultural motor vehicle, which is used:

only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry

on (public roads) only in passing between areas of land occupied by the same person

in passing between any two such areas does not travel a distance exceeding 1.5 kilometres on (public roads)

As your jake is mobile plant then probbably ok.

Insert_Nut

Andy_L wrote: »

Is the JCB being used "primarily for agriculture or forestry"?

Well I'm not felling any trees nor am I tending to any cattle. I'd be shovelling building materials / rubble and dumping it in to the trailer of a 34 ton / 44 ton vehicle.