If there is a second referendum ...

BobQ

Pj1981 wrote: »

First of all , i was not blaming foriegners for having fog lights on all the time, i was just ranting about many things and that was directed towards younger folk who somehow think its cool. I wouldnt say i was a perfect driver , but im sensible and would certainly notice fairly quickly if id mistakenly left them on. Now the NHS, when was the last time you had an eastern european writing you a prescription? It is almost always people who are clearly from outside the EU .Its simple, more people using the NHS means more stress on the service and an overall drop in standard.Has the funding ever been reduced?Not so long ago people were complaining because of people coming here just to use the NHS.Obviously more immigrants generates more taxes as we constantly hear, but we never hear the cons . Now we are swamped.All i was getting at was that it has got out of control.

Rants are best kept to yourself. Evidence that supports your argument is preferable.

All drivers are different, not sure their ethnicity or birthplace is a relevant factor in driving standards If I saw you driving with fog lights on a clear night I think my first thought might not be assume you were from Eastern Europe.

In any society, birth, death, immigration and emigration rates affect the numbers using public services. It is up to Government to plan to resource the service accordingly. Dropping standards are just a matter of adequate resourcing, available staff and training.You accept that immigration leads to more taxes but surely you can also see that if those taxes are not used to provide NHS or school places etc then standards are bound to fall.

The term swamped is pejorative. Many immigrants come here and do not use the NHS, some even make additional payments if they have no right to stay here permanently. It suits people to believe that immigration is the problem but we quietly forget that many Brits use the health services in other countries on much the same basis as they would in the UK. .

BobQ

I said in the post you quote

FOM alone is not meant to solve the problems of the NHS.

And you say

kabayiri wrote: »

It's disingenuous to suggest that FOM is the only solution for providing skills for a national health service. The NHS has taken people from the commonwealth and elsewhere for a long time.

Note that I never said this was the case. I said FOM and immigration which includes from the Commonwealth.


I agree with the following

Having said this, on a pragmatic level I could live with FOM if I believed we had a government willing to invest in infrastructure to meet the rising demand. But, we do not, and I doubt we ever will. We are left with throttling demand.

Who knows what the future will hold. The £350m a week should help While I can accept that health care costs are rising I wonder if it matters that much whether it is funded by insurance or taxation. My main objection to moving to insurance is that it will be yet another burden on the young since Government will never reduce taxes to reflect the move to insurance.

Thrugelmir

andrewf75 wrote: »

Haven’t you contradicted yourself? If immigrants contribute more taxes per capita, then funding should have increased in line with that.

Funding is a red herring. How long does it take to train a medical specialist? Why are many experienced NHS staff and GP's taking early retirement? Why are the number of chidren subject to protection orders on the increase? Topics are very complex. Easy for politicians to throw around billions of pounds as the answer without getting into the detail.

sevenhills

Pj1981 wrote: »

Now the NHS, when was the last time you had an eastern european writing you a prescription? It is almost always people who are clearly from outside the EU

From the point of view of the NHS, they are more than likely cheaper, doctors and nurses living in France or Germany may well be happy with their lot, our NHS probably pays less than their NHS.

sevenhills

andrewf75 wrote: »

I do think immigration levels have been too high recently, but I don’t buy this commonly held view of immigration putting pressure on services.

I tend to agree about our high levels of net immigration, but in reality trade and the free movement of people is now cheap and unstoppable.
In the same way that 100 years ago it would cost a weeks wages to travel 200 miles, a weeks wages would now get you 5,000 miles.

lisyloo

Why are many experienced NHS staff and GP's taking early retirement?

At the wealthier end of the scale (and I include GPs) the LTA (life time allowance) on pension funds is a big disincentive to carry on working.

movilogo

I tend to agree about our high levels of net immigration, but in reality trade and the free movement of people is now cheap and unstoppable.

If there is a will to stop it then definitely possible. England's population density is already one of the highest in Europe.

I wonder why nobody floated the idea of stay in EU but without Freedom of Movement.

ChopperST

lisyloo wrote: »

At the wealthier end of the scale (and I include GPs) the LTA (life time allowance) on pension funds is a big disincentive to carry on working.

Exactly this. Working in this field the majority of my seniors tend to work to see their children through University, reach their LTA and retire to occasional private practice. For some on the older NHS pension schemes this means their skills are lost from public service forever at 50 and they see out their days playing golf. At best they return to do sessional work on vastly reduced hours but this is generally in the private sector as opposed to the NHS.

Sapphire

Lungboy wrote: »

Indeed, all the dentists I've seen in the past 10+ years have been eastern european too. It's hard enough getting a dentist as it is these days without losing loads.

Completely different experience for me, in London. The dentists I've seen in this time period are increasingly Indian or some such. There are fewer and fewer English dentists (my one retired a couple of years ago and was replaced by an Indian). The Indian dentists are good, but they are in it for the money, setting up 'Smile' businesses and the like.

I've never come across a Eastern European dentist (or doctor), including in hospitals. Eastern Europeans, in the areas I know, anyway, work on building sites and in domestic-type work (or don't work). No doubt they are doing work that the English refuse to do nowadays, being better off on benefits and not too 'proud' to claim them. I believe Polish medics, at least, get paid quite well in Poland, so have no need to benefit from freedom of movement.

Many doctors in hospitals, too, are now Indian or Middle Eastern. I've only come across two or three doctors from continental European countries: a Norwegian consultant, and two junior Greek doctors.

kingstreet

Our dentist, at Regency House in Stone, is Polish.

https://www.nhs.uk/Services/dentists/Staff/DefaultView.aspx?id=25792