If there is a second referendum ...

Moby

badgerhead wrote: »

If the blokes in the trenches were not propertied men they were not allowed to vote. It wasn't until after the war they were granted it, along with women of a certain age. But sure the British Empire was fighting for democracy and had nothing to do with the perceived threat of other nations expansion of their colonies. I hate it when wars are brought up in the Brexit debate, I think it cheapens the tragic loss of life.

Excellent point. People forget the wealth of the British Empire was built through exploiting people all over the world including the working classes in England. It was the landed gentry and the middle class mercantile interests that saw a growth in wealth and influence. The great majority of men and women in Britain, as in the countries of the Empire were exploited. Those who think we are a bastion of democracy and different to what happens on the continent are naive. We fought the 1st WW because Germany was challenging our dominance. Prior to WW2 there were many forces in the UK that were sympathetic to Hitler. People tend to gloss over this now because history is written by the victors.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

Yes, it doesn’t fit in with the Remain narrative to remind folks that periodically Britain has had to distance itself from and in extreme cases take on the prevailing excesses at large in mainland Europe.

It fits the Remain narrative pretty well, if you remember what actually happened and not a romanticized version of events. We largely left Europe to it, whilst we were doing well from exploiting the rest of the globe, but even trying to ignore it we couldn't and we ended off involved.


That goes even more now that we're so integrated with it and prospering because of it, and almost all of our colonies have kicked us out. We can't just ignore Europe, so we may as well be properly involved.

Enterprise_1701C

We are not the only European country that had an empire, the French colonial empire covered much of continental Europe, I believe theirs was the second biggest empire in history.

The Dutch too had an empire.

Does the fact that we had an empire mean that we have to allow ourselves to be exploited by the eu empire? If you want us to pay for the sins of our ancestors then why are the Germans allowed to do as they please?

You can't change history. The reason Europe has been at war previously has tended towards being because of Germany's empirical ambitions. We have slowly been dismantling our holdings, allowing countries to go free and try to progress on their own, some have gone on the wrong path but many have continued as we taught them. Whereas Germany and France are seeking to increase their empire, they have figured out though that they need to do it by the back door rather than waging war.

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

It fits the Remain narrative pretty well, if you remember what actually happened and not a romanticized version of events. We largely left Europe to it, whilst we were doing well from exploiting the rest of the globe, but even trying to ignore it we couldn't and we ended off involved.


That goes even more now that we're so integrated with it and prospering because of it, and almost all of our colonies have kicked us out. We can't just ignore Europe, so we may as well be properly involved.

The French, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians, Dutch and Italians were also busy exploiting the rest of the globe. Every maritime power in Europe in other words.

andrewf75

Tyler4402 wrote: »

There won't be another referendum, the people have voted and a majority decision was made, which won, that is called democracy, which all English people used to have and were proud of, it made us civilised society and we were admired all around the world
The undemocratic in our society now want another vote, What?? can you imagine contestants in come dancing refusing the democratic decision of the judges and demanding another vote, if that ever happened.... anarchy wins
The treacherous MP's and undemocratic vested interests have seriously weakened our negotiating hand and for that we will get a rotten deal where a No Deal will make our country free and prosperous while saving £Thirty nine thousand millions of taxpayers pounds.
100 years ago our grandfathers fought and 79 years ago our Fathers fought again and gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we in 2019 are free to make a democratic decision without fear of retribution from a Communistic Federal Union

I agree, there shouldn’t really be another vote, but we have a parliamentary democracy – that is the proud history we are admired for -
and if the deal doesn’t go through next week or whenever it is, then a second vote has to be on the table – not in an attempt to reverse the other one, but to clarify what people want now that we know what options are actually on the table.

No deal is disastrous and it would go against our proud history for parliament to accept that so if that is where we’re headed, we should ask the people again.

Your last bit is just nonsense. No-one certainly not the EU is trying to subvert our democracy, it’s our democracy itself that is struggling to enact the decision to leave because there are conflicts – particularly the NI situation.

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Does the fact that we had an empire mean that we have to allow ourselves to be exploited by the eu empire? If you want us to pay for the sins of our ancestors then why are the Germans allowed to do as they please?

I'm not making comments on any other Empires, just that our reliance has shifted from our empire to the EU. Can you explain how we're being exploited by the EU or how it's an empire?


We shouldn't pay for sins of ancestors, but if we're harking back to a noble past we need to remember how that past actually was. It was largely exploitative and not something we could do now.

MobileSaver

Tyler4402 wrote: »

the people have voted and a majority decision was made, which won, that is called democracy, ...
The undemocratic in our society now want another vote, What??

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting."

Please could you explain why British people voting in 2016 was democracy but the same voting in 2019 is suddenly undemocratic?

badgerhead

MobileSaver wrote: »

"Democracy is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting."

Please could you explain why British people voting in 2016 was democracy but the same voting in 2019 is suddenly undemocratic?

It's not undemocratic, but Remain would win, too many marginal/swing voters have woken to realise that pooling sovereignty isn't that big an issue. Also probably a bit ashamed how voting Leave has normalised discrimination and Othering. Realised that getting triggered over the fact big EU economies are net contributors compared to smaller ones, whilst living in a welfare state that wouldn't happen without disproportionate tax on wealth is absurd.

Therefore Leave will want to avoid at all cost. That said there would have to be a significant swing to Remain in the result for closure on the subject.

badgerhead

I wouldn't even bother with another referendum. Just withdraw A50, make a statement to the public, that there is too much to lose. You'll hate me but your kids are gonna love it.

movilogo

Please could you explain why British people voting in 2016 was democracy but the same voting in 2019 is suddenly undemocratic?

If UK leaves EU as per 2016 and then after few years people are asked again whether to join EU then it is democratic decision.

But asking again without implementing 2016 referendum result is undemocratic because Remainers did not like the 2016 outcome. If you say let's have EU referendum every 5 years then it is democratic. Are the remainers happy to offer that? I guess not. Remainers just want Remain to win and then forget the whole thing for next 20 years by saying "hey, don't dare ignore public vote".

Compare this with a general election. You want party A to win but public make party B winner. You have to live with party B for next 5 years. Can you ask for a vote because you didn't like party B?

All these 2nd referendum thing coming because Remainers didn't like (and didn't expect either) Leave winning.