If there is a second referendum ...

Herzlos

BLB53 wrote: »

My solution - if the politicians cannot or more accurately will not implement the referendum then I would replace them with others who are prepared to get on with the task and can respect democracy.

If it's a bad idea, then surely it's even more of a bad idea to keep changing politicians until you get one willing to do it?
Do you really want a UKIP government to be in charge of anything?

That there are no credible politicians offering to do it, and no politicians wanting to get to close to it, should tell you a lot about how successful it was going to be. If there was an easy way to do it without trashing the economy then someone would have mentioned it by now.

I'm saying that as someone who's quite happy to let you go full WTO. It's political suicide.

BikingBud

BobQ wrote: »

I cannot see how asking for a second vote based on the outcome of the negotiations is rejecting democracy.

The final decision will be made by Parliament and if they cannot agree it has to go to an election or referendum.

Parliament voted to initiate Clause 50 why can they not deliver now?

Party politics or anything but what they say!

BLB53

I cannot see how asking for a second vote based on the outcome of the negotiations is rejecting democracy.

Obviously, any second referendum would undermine the legitimacy of the first referendum which we were clearly told on many occasions was a once in a generation decision. The result of any second vote would be called into question by those who lost and then who could defend their call for yet another referendum? We are already turning into the laughing stock of Europe and this would descend into pure farce.

The final decision will be made by Parliament and if they cannot agree it has to go to an election or referendum.

If they cannot agree on the meaningful vote which currently looks likely, they presumably would not be able to agree to offer another referendum. The default position is therefore that we leave without any deal but I hope a responsible government would try to manage the process and possibly agree some sort of transition period to avoid some of the problems previously highlighted.

There may be another election but this would entail asking for a suspension of Article 50 which all 27 have to agree to and then what happens about the EU elections in May? I think any delay would compound the problem. The politicians need to grasp the nettle firmly and discharge the responsibilities we gave to them in June 2016 (and again in 2017) and deliver Brexit.

BLB53

Not not incompetence I said it was an impossible task.

Nothing is impossible. They weighed up the situation following the big win for UKIP in the 2014 EU elections (under PR) and promised a referendum if they won the 2015 election. They did win and delivered on that promise.

Surely when the referendum was debated in Parliament and MPs voted by 6:1 in favour of giving the people a vote, someone would have argued that it was an impossible task? I heard no such reservations from either side.

Maybe during the referendum debates before the vote in 2016 or even during the subsequent 2017 GE, someone would have said sorry it cannot be done, it's just impossible.

Where there is a will there is usually a way and what has been lacking so far is the political will to deliver on the vote from large numbers of MPs on both sides who basically never wanted to leave and find it difficult to think like their constituents who do want to leave.

They say things like nobody voted to be poorer after Brexit. Richer or poorer I do not know (I don't think anyone really does)...I just voted to leave...end of...and I just want what we voted for and were promised.

lisyloo

kabayiri wrote: »

Why is leaving an impossible task?

Ok, I'll concede it's not impossible

Do you not think that Cameron sought some counsel on the referendum before deciding on the 2 options?

I don't think he sought council from Cressida, MI5/6, David Attenborough (yes, the planet should be right up there at the top of our list of concerns) etc.

The thing is this. For our political system to work, we have to assume that those at the helm are indeed competent.

and that's why it's falling down.

Leaving is entirely possible. It is a value judgement as to what is an acceptable cost.

My personal opinion is that if we need to make plans for the military to egt involved, then it's not acceptable.

MobileSaver

BLB53 wrote: »

I am continually surprised at the excuses remainers put forward to justify their decisions to reject democracy.

I am continually surprised at the excuses Brexiteers put forward as to why a referendum in 2016 was democracy but the same referendum in 2019 would be rejecting democracy!

Matt_L

MobileSaver wrote: »

I am continually surprised at the excuses Brexiteers put forward as to why a referendum in 2016 was democracy but the same referendum in 2019 would be rejecting democracy!

Your argument makes no sense, it would be like saying, in 2019 Labour win a snap general election picking up most votes but we won't allow them to form a government because we want another vote. After all people are allowed to change their mind..

Once the 2016 referendum is enacted in full and time has passed then, sure, lets have another vote....

MobileSaver

Matt_L wrote: »

Your argument makes no sense, it would be like saying, in 2019 Labour win a snap general election picking up most votes but we won't allow them to form a government because we want another vote.

On the contrary, it is your argument that makes no sense and actually supports what I said.

We hold a general election in the UK for the people to decide who will run the country for the next five years. We did this in 2015 however just two years later a snap general election was held to see if the people had changed their mind! You and BLB53 seem to be saying this was rejecting democracy because the elected govenrment didn't wait until their full five year term had passed!

Matt_L wrote: »

Once the 2016 referendum is enacted in full and time has passed then, sure, lets have another vote...

That's just what you want to happen as you are afraid another referendum will result in a different answer to last time. There is absolutely no basis in law or democracy to delay a second referendum.

BLB53

David Attenborough (yes, the planet should be right up there at the top of our list of concerns)

Could not agree more that climate change issues should be getting far more attention rather than politicians squabbling over Brexit. This is one big reason why I cannot understand why people want to drag this out for a further 18 months (at least) calling for another referendum.

Climate Change is the most important issue and a challenge to the global community and it's being totally sidelined by Brexit...what do we tell the grandchildren?

BLB53

We hold a general election in the UK for the people to decide who will run the country for the next five years

...and we were told many times that the referendum was a once in a lifetime decision so it is unfair to compare it with a general election...apples and pears.