If there is a second referendum ...

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

I don't ignore it. I agree with the process. It brings order and sense to the way the world is developing. I agree with article 13. In any event the point is cutting ourselves off from influencing such developments which cross national borders leaves us out in the cold.

Then you should openly campaign for full EU participation, by selling the virtues of the Euro and Shengen.

I have no problem as long as people are open about this ambition. Verfhofstadt clearly is.

I obviously will never agree with it, and you and I have nothing in common. There is no reason to correspond further.

andrewf75

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Any country which is a net beneficiary of being a member (of which there are 23) is unlikely to share similar views. .

You mean net contributer in terms of payments, not net beneficiary of being a member – there are 28 of those.

System

Mojisola wrote: »

two world wars were fought to make sure that Britain wasn't an outlying island on the edge of a Europe dominated by Germany - .

I don't think so. I don't think we gave a thought to our own position vis a vis Germany - we rather arrogantly assumed at the start we were unassailable. We entered the first war in defence of Belgium, and then of France, and the second in futile "defence" of Poland, and then of France.
Our role in Europe has always been to come to the defence of the weaker power in order to preserve the balance, and then job done, to bow out.

BobQ

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

1 :rotfl:
2
Birmingham city council = 7,000 employees.
EU = approx. 32,000 employees.
It really isn't difficult to check so please next time don't be quite so obvious with your attempted deception.
It's unnecessary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-35049112
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/figures/administration_en

Are you quoting direct employees or contractors working in outsoured jobs

BobQ

cogito wrote: »

Just remind me please. When do voters in the EU get an opportunity to vote on this 'policy direction'?

In a General Election in their nation
Also they elect MEPs

BobQ

cogito wrote: »

Someone might also like to tell us if there is an EU equivalent to a private members bill.

MEPs can suggest bills which are at first reviewed in committee and can them be proposed for adoption.

Kohoutek

cogito wrote: »

We have elections in the UK from time to time in which political parties make manifesto commitments. The party which is elected then implements those commitments by going to the civil service instructing them to draft laws which are Presented to parliament which debates and amends them before they pass into law. The civil servants don't just sit down together and decide to make their own laws. It's remarkable that some people are unable to see the difference between an elected government implementing its manifesto and an unelected Commission proposing laws which the people have had no opportunity to vote for or against.

That is the theory for how democracy works in the UK. The reality is:

(1) manifesto pledges are often implemented differently to described, or not at all.
(2) your MP makes almost all decisions based on his/her party affiliation (i.e. the whip system) not constituents' interests.
(3) 99% of central government business is not on the manifesto (to take one example, all foreign policy decisions).

We should make comparisons based on how things work in practice, not in theory.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

cogito wrote: »

Just remind me please. When do voters in the EU get an opportunity to vote on this 'policy direction'?

In every General Election of their member state.

kinger101

I don't agree the EU is a more democratic institution than it's individual member states. By definition, any deficit in the way a member state appoints its government is carried though in the selection of the Council of Ministers.

I don't think the EU can be democratic based on it's size or composition. I voted remain and hope for a second referendum. At the very least, it would break an impasse. Our own Parliament (including Labour) have failed miserably in their negotiation our of the EU. Largely because of self-interested hard-brexiteers (including Corbyn).

Although I'm a remainer, I believe we wouldn't be in this mess if the EU hadn't continually tried to extend it's remit without consensus.

Enterprise_1701C

kinger101 wrote: »

I don't agree the EU is a more democratic institution than it's individual member states. By definition, any deficit in the way a member state appoints its government is carried though in the selection of the Council of Ministers.

I don't think the EU can be democratic based on it's size or composition. I voted remain and hope for a second referendum. At the very least, it would break an impasse. Our own Parliament (including Labour) have failed miserably in their negotiation our of the EU. Largely because of self-interested hard-brexiteers (including Corbyn).

Although I'm a remainer, I believe we wouldn't be in this mess if the EU hadn't continually tried to extend it's remit without consensus.

Utterly agree with your last paragraph.

They have also constantly avoided introducing new treaties because of the fact that many countries would have to have referenda about them. Everything has been done to increase the eu's hold on the continent without puplic consensus.

As I have said before, I was happy with the common market. I am not happy with the protectionist political union.