If there is a second referendum ...

movilogo

Yes.....and that's why the EU was created. It provides a democratic forum by which states resolve their trade disputes and power struggles thereby avoiding war.

While that was initial intention, EU has evolved to become a superstate, run by unelected beraucrats. It would have been far better if EU confined itself to trade only.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

movilogo wrote: »

While that was initial intention, EU has evolved to become a superstate, run by unelected beraucrats

It would have been far better if EU confined itself to trade only.

1. The EU is more democratic than the UK.

2. It largely does confine itself to trade, the EU has fewer employees than Birmingham City Council, and over 90% of EU legislation is directly related to trade and regulatory standards for trade.

A_Pandiculation

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

1. The EU is more democratic than the UK.

2. It largely does confine itself to trade, the EU has fewer employees than Birmingham City Council, and over 90% of EU legislation is directly related to trade and regulatory standards for trade.

1 :rotfl:
2
Birmingham city council = 7,000 employees.
EU = approx. 32,000 employees.
It really isn't difficult to check so please next time don't be quite so obvious with your attempted deception.
It's unnecessary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-35049112
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/figures/administration_en

Herzlos

movilogo wrote: »

While that was initial intention, EU has evolved to become a superstate, run by unelected beraucrats.

Who running the EU is unelected? Are their UK equivalents elected?


Do they have an equivalent of the House of Lords? A hereditary head of state?
Are our civil servants elected?

MaxiRobriguez

The only people in the EU that can create laws are unelected technocrats accountable to no one.

The UK needs to ditch the monarchy and work out a better system than the Lords but as a functioning democratic system accountable to voters then yes, it is clearly better than the EU model.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

The only people in the EU that can create laws are unelected technocrats accountable to no one.
.

Very naughty....

The Council of Ministers, the elected heads of state of each member nation, are the ones who set policy direction. They also appoint the Commissioners, one from each member state.

Then the Commissioners, appointed by the EU member state Ministers, draft the legislation to meet the policy goals as directed by the Council of Ministers.

And then the Parliament, directly elected, debates, amends and votes on or rejects any proposed legislation.

The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

Moby

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

The only people in the EU that can create laws are unelected technocrats accountable to no one.

The UK needs to ditch the monarchy and work out a better system than the Lords but as a functioning democratic system accountable to voters then yes, it is clearly better than the EU model.

The European Commission (essentially the EU’s civil service) is responsible for drafting and proposing legislation.

'The European Parliament (elected by EU citizens) and the Council of Ministers (representing national governments and attended by national ministers) amend the draft proposals and vote on whether these proposals should become EU law. National governments and the European Commission are then responsible for seeing that those laws that are passed are then implemented'.

Our Civil Service does the same. It's far more democratic than our system of hereditary Lords being able to amend legislation or hold it up!

MaxiRobriguez

So, as stated, the only people in the EU that can create laws are unelected technocrats accountable to no one.

The EU parliament, which is elected, can at best only reject a new treaty from the unelected technocrats.

I stand by my point.

kabayiri

Sapphire wrote: »

I'd amend the sentence (in bold) to say 'It's only 100 years since the end of the First World War and the regaining of independence in places like Poland.'

Before that Poland was carved up between three repressive empires, the worst of which were the Prussians (Germans) and Russians. According to these empires, it in fact ceased to exist on maps, and efforts were made to suppress the language, and so on. It endured those empires for more than 100 years and only regained independence with great difficulty, due to the fall of the empires. (Note that before the partitions it was a powerful nation for many centuries, though it had little to do with Britain.)

It's part of the wider see-sawing between larger empire/union and the desire of a national level of identity.

I spent a good few hours recently talking to a Polish guide about exactly what you describe.

The idea that the EU ends this process is unproven at best.

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

They live in a unicorn fantasy world in which every member country is about to shake off the shackles of EU tyranny.....completely ignoring the fact that no other country wants to leave!

Your personal fantasy is to ignore the continued power grab which is going on within the EU, and which will not stop if the UK remains.

Verhofstadt is but one of a number of MEPs who share and embrace this :
https://youtu.be/-xg7JwbJfWA

It's ambitions spread to the digital space too :
https://youtu.be/igFFj15uiWc

I detest Article 13 because it's the wrong solution to the perceived problem. Hey, but no matter, our EU masters will force it through.

Don't worry. All this will be dredged up if there is another vote, and the spin will definitely paint the EU as the ogres.