If there is a second referendum ...

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

kabayiri wrote: »

It's the type of exit set out in the leaflet Dave Cameron & co sent out to all the households.

Clearly, he would not have signed off on the wording if they weren't prepared to accept the consequences.

Only that leaflet represented the official interpretation; anything said by individual Leave campaigners was just usual political campaign rhetoric.

Actually 'that leaflet' was not the official government position, it was merely a pamphlet designed to offer up some broad brush stroke information.

Helpfully however, the government DID take an official position on what would happen if there were to be a Brexit vote, and it even published it in a White Paper just before the referendum.

And also, quite helpfully, the Brexit campaigners made it all about 'taking back control', without ever specifying what 'taking back control' actually meant.

The inevitable consequence of 'taking back control' is that the UK govt then gets to choose what it wants to do and what the right balance and trade-offs are in it's future relationship with the EU.

So if it decides that in future, something close to free movement but with a bit more control and suitably rebranded is in our best interests, it can do that.

Or if it decides to leave 'the customs union' for a 'new customs partnership' it can do that too.

Or it can even just decide to apply for EEA or EFTA membership if it wants to.

"Taking back control" is the first step - evaluating the best way forward for the UK is something else entirely, and that something will no doubt change over time as the real world does, and those questions weren't on the referendum ballot paper....

They were however clearly explained in the official UK government White Paper published in March 2016, which was clear as to what would happen if the UK voted to leave.

If the result of the referendum were a vote to leave, we would seek the best possible balance of advantage for the UK.

However, regardless of the preferred outcome that the UK seeks, the
precedents clearly indicate that we would need to make a number
of trade-offs:

- in return for full access to the EUs free-trade Single Market in key UK industries, we would have to accept the free movement of people;

- full access to the Single Market would require us to continue to
contribute to the EUs programmes and budget;

- an approach based on a Free Trade Agreement would not come
with the same level of obligations, but would mean UK companies
had reduced access to the Single Market in key sectors such as
services (almost 80 per cent of the UK economy), and would face
higher costs;

- in order to maintain the rights of UK citizens living, working and
travelling in other EU countries, we would almost certainly have
to accept reciprocal arrangements for their citizens in the UK.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk

The official UK government position before the referendum was that if we voted to leave, the government would then choose the best possible balance between rights and responsibilities, and make compromises that may include accepting free movement of people in return for the access to the single market.

What individual campaigners or politicians may or may not have said is of no relevance - as the official government position was laid out very clearly before the vote in it's white paper...

And if some Brexit voters didn't bother to read the government's positional white paper prior to voting, and instead relied on vague campaigning material, that's hardly the fault of Remainers...

charlotte1994

StevieJ wrote: »

I have certainly noticed that, some of my older facebook contacts will share the most ridiculous stories or videos.

Some are so obviously a lie, though. I would have thought that given their years they would be wiser to that sort of thing. One made me laugh which a few friends shared, it was that immigrants get £200 a week in Tesco vouchers :doh: as if that even sounds possible. It was literally just a screenshot of a Facebook post, no source or anything

andrewf75

charlotte1994 wrote: »

Some are so obviously a lie, though. I would have thought that given their years they would be wiser to that sort of thing. One made me laugh which a few friends shared, it was that immigrants get £200 a week in Tesco vouchers :doh: as if that even sounds possible. It was literally just a screenshot of a Facebook post, no source or anything

Age doesn't make people wise, intelligence does.
At the end of the day there are a lot of incredibly stupid people, they don't just suddenly become sensible when they hit 50.

Yes of course age brings experience, but experience is not always positive in shaping views. It makes some people wise, others bitter.

I think its very worrying how people on both sides are attempting to divide generations.

Herzlos

charlotte1994 wrote: »

I was thinking this, with social media and such young people have immediate access to policy and such. Teens these days are much more likely to fact check than their parents (I don't want to be ageist but I have seen way too many fake Facebook posts being shared by people 45+, it's quite alarming when they take 2 seconds of searching to realise they are false). Teens these days are seeing their parents struggle on UC, PIP etc. Things will be different in the future I reckon

I suspect formal education has a part in this as well, one of the things we covered repeatedly at higher education levels was verifying sources, critical analysis, etc. It's potentially the only useful part of a university education these days.
That exposure would likely never happened with someone who left school at 14 and didn't go near academia, because there'd never need to.


Similar will happen in terms of technological awareness - younger folk who grew up with the internet presumably have much more awareness of how much garbage is on there.

andrewf75

Herzlos wrote: »

Similar will happen in terms of technological awareness - younger folk who grew up with the internet presumably have much more awareness of how much garbage is on there.

Not sure about that. One persons garbage is another persons truth these days! Don't think age has much to do with it.

ukcarper

Unfortunately the majority of people on both sides of argument accept post that reinforce their view and only critically look at posts that don't, that's one of the main problems with social media especially when combine with fact they people gravitate to groups with people of similar views.

BobQ

BikingBud wrote: »

Corrected that for you

We should change parliament, primarily to reduce the 650 spongers down to a reasonable number of representatives c200.

And secondly we should challenge them to deliver what the people voted for, to leave, and what they also voted for by revoking Article 50.

We entrust them with our livelihoods and our futures and all we get is clowns and bickering:mad:

No correction was needed. I meant English arrogance, I have not noticed Scottish or Welsh being arrogant. The English (of which I am one) have a preponderance for assuming they have a God given right to rule.

kabayiri

BobQ wrote: »

No correction was needed. I meant English arrogance, I have not noticed Scottish or Welsh being arrogant. The English (of which I am one) have a preponderance for assuming they have a God given right to rule.

Duh.

That's because God comes from Yorkshire, tha' knows it lad.

kabayiri

ukcarper wrote: »

Unfortunately the majority of people on both sides of argument accept post that reinforce their view and only critically look at posts that don't, that's one of the main problems with social media especially when combine with fact they people gravitate to groups with people of similar views.

The answer is to post the opposite of what you plan on the likes of FB.

It's consistent misinformation.

Or even better, don't discuss anything which doesn't involve a fluffy cat on FB.

A_Pandiculation

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Actually 'that leaflet' was not the official government position, it was merely a pamphlet designed to offer up some broad brush stroke information.
.....................................

:rotfl: What bull! :rotfl:
What was the title of the leaflet?
Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK
"Broad brush stroke information" my deriere.