If there is a second referendum ...

badmemory

Who do you think drafts laws in the UK? Do you think MPs actually sit down & draft them? Of course they don't, it's done by unelected civil servants & lawyers & then just like in the EU, MPs discuss, amend & vote.

Thrugelmir

Posted by Moby
They live in a unicorn fantasy world in which every member country is about to shake off the shackles of EU tyranny.....completely ignoring the fact that no other country wants to leave!

Any country which is a net beneficiary of being a member (of which there are 23) is unlikely to share similar views.

Likewise income \ cash generated from sale of assets, tourism and remittances home isn't to be sniffed at. The UK makes a significant contribution to overall European economic activity.

Kohoutek

Mojisola wrote: »

As the older people in our family have said - two world wars were fought to make sure that Britain wasn't an outlying island on the edge of a Europe dominated by Germany - now we've voted to put ourselves in exactly that position - they are horrified at the choice the country has made.

Plus back then we had a huge international empire; we weren't just a European power.

Today the closest thing we have to an empire is a grade AAA global business / financial centre (i.e. the City of London). However, for some reason Brexiteers think we should surrender huge chunks of the City to our competitors in Europe and to New York.

masterwilde

Kohoutek wrote: »

Plus back then we had a huge international empire; we weren't just a European power.

Today the closest thing we have to an empire is a grade AAA global business / financial centre (i.e. the City of London). However, for some reason Brexiteers think we should surrender huge chunks of the City to our competitors in Europe and to New York.

That would be either jealousy or hatred at the fact money is London centric and they believe London is like a little country all on its own.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

So, as stated, the only people in the EU that can create laws are unelected technocrats accountable to no one.
.

But only at the direction of the Council of Ministers who set the policy objectives and they are the elected heads of State.

In the UK elected ministers direct unelected civil servants to create laws that further their policy objectives.

This is then voted on by the elected House of Commons, and the unelected House of lords, before requiring assent from the unelected Queen before it becomes law.


In the EU the elected Council of Ministers direct the unelected (but appointed by elected governments) Commissioners to create laws that further their policy objectives.

This is the voted on by the elected EU parliament, and once approved becomes law.


The EU is more democratic than the UK....

Kohoutek

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

In the UK elected ministers direct unelected civil servants to create laws that further their policy objectives.

The first part is worse than that - in the UK:

1. MPs are elected as members of a legislature, Parliament, to serve and represent the constituents which elected them.
   
2. Notwithstanding that, some MPs are appointed as heads of huge executive departments (i.e. become ministers), which mean they can no longer do what members of a legislature are supposed to do, e.g. represent their constituents and scrutinise the executive.
   
3. The person who appoints them, the Prime Minister, is not directly elected by the public, unlike e.g. France or the US.

In the UK, we have one of the worst 'democratic' systems imaginable, in many respects. Of course Brexiteers aren't interested in changing that despite railing against the EU.

cogito

badmemory wrote: »

Who do you think drafts laws in the UK? Do you think MPs actually sit down & draft them? Of course they don't, it's done by unelected civil servants & lawyers & then just like in the EU, MPs discuss, amend & vote.

We have elections in the UK from time to time in which political parties make manifesto commitments. The party which is elected then implements those commitments by going to the civil service instructing them to draft laws which are Presented to parliament which debates and amends them before they pass into law. The civil servants don't just sit down together and decide to make their own laws. It's remarkable that some people are unable to see the difference between an elected government implementing its manifesto and an unelected Commission proposing laws which the people have had no opportunity to vote for or against.

Someone might also like to tell us if there is an EU equivalent to a private members bill.

cogito

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Very naughty....

The Council of Ministers, the elected heads of state of each member nation, are the ones who set policy direction. They also appoint the Commissioners, one from each member state.

Then the Commissioners, appointed by the EU member state Ministers, draft the legislation to meet the policy goals as directed by the Council of Ministers.

And then the Parliament, directly elected, debates, amends and votes on or rejects any proposed legislation.

The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

Just remind me please. When do voters in the EU get an opportunity to vote on this 'policy direction'?

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

Your personal fantasy is to ignore the continued power grab which is going on within the EU, and which will not stop if the UK remains.

Verhofstadt is but one of a number of MEPs who share and embrace this :
https://youtu.be/-xg7JwbJfWA

It's ambitions spread to the digital space too :
https://youtu.be/igFFj15uiWc

I detest Article 13 because it's the wrong solution to the perceived problem. Hey, but no matter, our EU masters will force it through.

Don't worry. All this will be dredged up if there is another vote, and the spin will definitely paint the EU as the ogres.

I don't ignore it. I agree with the process. It brings order and sense to the way the world is developing. I agree with article 13. In any event the point is cutting ourselves off from influencing such developments which cross national borders leaves us out in the cold.

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Someone might also like to tell us if there is an EU equivalent to a private members bill.

The same ones that can be killed off by a cantankerous old !!!!!! yelling "object" until a bill tabled by his friends comes up?

cogito wrote: »

Just remind me please. When do voters in the EU get an opportunity to vote on this 'policy direction'?

MEPs are elected every 5 years?