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If there is a second referendum ...
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Nobody said it did.Fortunately democracy does not require your personal agreement!
Read it again - I said that (besides myself AND yourself) none of the UK public was asked.
Your unpleasantness there is uncalled-for.
They are supposed to but Major signed the Maastricht Treaty without saying what he was signing and actually hid facts.We elect Governments at General Elections and they ratify on our behalf. Manifestos of the main parties all stated their policy on such Treaties and how they would be ratified.
Have a read of https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/07/25-years-maastricht-treaty-conservative-wounds-finally-healing/
You can register for free to read it.
So no, both individuals and political parties are not as open as they should be; as a voter you cannot vote for something without first being informed of what that something is.
Where?I am not researching all the EU treaties for you but Qualified Majority Voting on some issues was covered by Treaties UK signed in the last century.
Are you also unaware that the EU have been increasing the occasions where QMV is used?
It is all done by stealth, not openness.
But certainly not to new incidences and issues.Fair enough but we as a nation agreed to majority voting on specific issues.
We joined a club that adds new rules very regularly too.Why should they? We joined a club that has rules. Would you expect your golf club to justify why you should continue your membership? Particularly when you are the member that is always moaning about the way the club is run.
No wonder some members moan.
Another reason Brexit was the result then; the EU with their love for rules.
They can't rule on what to do about important issues such as migrants or refugees - but light bulbs or vacuum cleaners, oh yes!
:doh:
You have gone off on a complete tangent there.Its not at all - Would you expect the Cabinet Secretary to be elected?
I have not suggested anything of the sort.
That's nothing but distraction, frankly.I grant you this bureaucrat's appointment was not in accordance with the rules but this does happen in all organisations. I agree it is not right but do you think that this has never happened in the UK? Do you know how the Cabinet Secretary is appointed? The current PM and the outgoing CS decided it behind close doors? I agree two wrongs do not make a right we are hardly in a position to criticise.
Firstly had this occurred in the UK we, the British people, could if we so chose do something about it.
Secondly Selmayer is not head civil servant of one member state.
He is responsible for 28 member countries and their civil servants must do his bidding.
How can any single country avoid doing what he suggests?
They can't, basically.
As I said earlier, that is why they are peeved and quite rightly too.
Thankfully yo realise that his promotion was wrong so I should be grateful for small mercies.
Again though, what happens elsewhere is not relevant to this incident.
Of which, to be perfectly frank, the EU has far, far too many which are equally unsavoury.0 -
Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.
Sam Vimes' Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness:
People are rich because they spend less money. A poor man buys $10 boots that last a season or two before he's walking in wet shoes and has to buy another pair. A rich man buys $50 boots that are made better and give him 10 years of dry feet. The poor man has spent $100 over those 10 years and still has wet feet.
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What a great example of someone who can "see us all as human beings" your own post is, referring to these human beings as "pathetic little Englanders"! Truly an excellent example of tolerance right there.Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.0 -
Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.
Hear hear. The world has had more than enough of nationalists hollering their tribal prejudices at each other.
Really couldn't care less about the petty flag waving.0 -
Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.
What a pathetic post, long may nationalism continue.Official MR B fan club,dont go............................0 -
Nobody said it did.
Read it again - I said that (besides myself AND yourself) none of the UK public was asked.
Your unpleasantness there is uncalled-for.
Unpleasantness? It was you who said "I was never asked whether or not I agreed with this, either in the 70's or since". I just pointed out it was not required.
I fully accept that our system - based on trusting governments to sign treaties within the context of winning General Elections - is flawed. Many important issues including this are not properly discussed in the debate during General Elections. So it is easy to say people were not consulted properly. But rightly or wrongly you cannot deny that this is the way our representative democracy works.
Since the EC was created there have been 48 referenda held and 6 Treaties, so most nations do not hold a referendum when a Treaty is signed.Are you also unaware that the EU have been increasing the occasions where QMV is used?
It is all done by stealth, not openness.
Yes I am , but the idea it is by stealth is only true if you regard the Treaties as being approved in secret. As far as I know the last changes to QMV were in the Lisbon Treaty and that was covered in the press over many years.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
A_Pandiculation wrote: »What a great example of someone who can "see us all as human beings" your own post is, referring to these human beings as "pathetic little Englanders"! Truly an excellent example of tolerance right there.
I don't see any real problem with being intolerant towards intolerance.
He's not saying he has any problem with the people, just their attitude.0 -
Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.
Has it occurred to you that what you call nationalism is pride in a part of who we are? Scientists making discoveries are proud to be the first one to get there, and our "nationalism" is part of our identity, part of what we are. Do you think we would have got to the moon so quickly if there was not competition between countries? That competition drives developments.
No, we need to have a country to relate to, we need to have the ambition to be the first, we need to be allowed to be British and to be proud of that.What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare0 -
Whether it's 50 or 100 years, I really hope the pathetic little Englander flag waving so called nationalism will disappear. We are all humans, the planet could be in good order and everyone living a good life but no, we have so many sad little isolationists who worry about flags and nationality. Boo hoo, the sooner the generations who care about such petty differences and divisions are gone and people who see us all as human beings dominate, the better.
That's what everyone was saying in 1919 - no more wars, all disputes sorted out amicably by the League of Nations, peace and goodwill would prevail everywhere. Twenty years later we were all at each others' throats again. That generation and several more have indeed come and gone since.
I think you need a model that reflects how people are, not how you would like them to be.This is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
Tony Blair suggested (promised?) a referendum on this in 2005, but it didn't happen.As far as I know the last changes to QMV were in the Lisbon Treaty and that was covered in the press over many years.0
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