If there is a second referendum ...

BLB53

Senior civil servants have been desperately trying to make a complicated affair work,

Robbins, a self confessed europhile put in charge of the negotiations by our PM, has been desperately undermining the leave process for the past 18 months. He sidelined Davis and worked on the Chequers white paper with the PM without the knowledge of the Brexit secretary. The first he knew of this white paper was the day before the meeting in July when the cabinet ministers were locked in and told to agree it or pay for their taxi home.

Meanwhile senior treasury mandarins have turned up project fear 2 to max. in relation to no deal which helps MPs - mainly Labour and SNP - to jump on the bandwagon and try to rule out this option cos the truth is they all want to remain but cannot be straight with us.

So yes, they have been working hard to make it work...but not for the people who won the referendum. More for themselves and providing ammunition for remainers.

Filo25

BLB53 wrote: »

No it does not. Brexit is about leaving the EU and taking back control of our sovereignty, our courts adjudicating on our laws, free to negotiate trade deals with the world (including EU) on our own terms.

If you elect your MP and it is a close result, the winner does not implement half of the other party's policies.

This was a binary choice with the winner prevailing..or so I thought when I voted. Had remain won, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, I would have accepted the result...I would not be calling for us to half leave the EU cos it was so close.

We should have been very clear from the start that we would be leaving on WTO rules but with proviso that we would prefer a trade deal and if the EU also wanted one then explore the common ground in principle.

Easily said in hindsight I know, but options which are not Brexit should not be entertained on the basis it would keep the remainers more content about losing the referendum.

For what its worth I highly doubt Leave would have won if it had approached the referendum in that way, and effectively put together a manifesto of what Leave meant

One of the great strength's the leave campaign was being able to be all things to all people.

For some it was about cutting immigration, for some it was about "fair" immigration (more from the rest of the world, to make up for cuts from the EU)

Some may have thought they were getting the hardest of Brexits, others thought they were getting all the benefits of the EU without any of the costs

andrewf75

BLB53 wrote: »

No it does not. Brexit is about leaving the EU and taking back control of our sovereignty, our courts adjudicating on our laws, free to negotiate trade deals with the world (including EU) on our own terms.

If you elect your MP and it is a close result, the winner does not implement half of the other party's policies.

This was a binary choice with the winner prevailing..or so I thought when I voted. Had remain won, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, I would have accepted the result...I would not be calling for us to half leave the EU cos it was so close.

We should have been very clear from the start that we would be leaving on WTO rules but with proviso that we would prefer a trade deal and if the EU also wanted one then explore the common ground in principle.

Easily said in hindsight I know, but options which are not Brexit should not be entertained on the basis it would keep the remainers more content about losing the referendum.

But you're complicating things with your own interpretations of what Brexit means.
Brexit only means one thing, leaving the EU. Norway is 100% not in the EU. You are either a member or you're not.
I fully accept the argument that its only worth doing with a complete break, but I can't imagine that leave would have won had this been made clear.
There are two groups most at fault for not accepting the result - the remainers who simply can't accept it but also the leavers who insist only their version of brexit is really brexit!
The equivalent analogy to yours is if remain had won and then claimed that this now gave a mandate to join the euro and Schengen and sign up to closer integration etc. As a member we had many opt outs and any sensible vision of leave should assume some opt-ins given that is the case for every other non-EU European country and given the NI situation and 40 years of integration the need is obvious.

kabayiri

andrewf75 wrote: »

...
The equivalent analogy to yours is if remain had won and then claimed that this now gave a mandate to join the euro and Schengen and sign up to closer integration etc. As a member we had many opt outs and any sensible vision of leave should assume some opt-ins given that is the case for every other non-EU European country and given the NI situation and 40 years of integration the need is obvious.

I actually agree.

Another referendum should be between :
a) fully Out
b) fully In

We are either committed to the EU project and its' goals or we are not. So option b) should include commitment to join the Euro and Shengen.

The EU are clearly going to try and push ahead with their plans like EU army, so it's worth knowing where the UK stand now.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

I actually agree.

Another referendum should be between :
a) fully Out
b) fully In

We are either committed to the EU project and its' goals or we are not. So option b) should include commitment to join the Euro and Shengen.

The EU are clearly going to try and push ahead with their plans like EU army, so it's worth knowing where the UK stand now.

That would be interesting as I don't think many remainers want to be fully in!
Makes you realise what a good deal we currently have, best of both worlds.

kabayiri

andrewf75 wrote: »

That would be interesting as I don't think many remainers want to be fully in!
Makes you realise what a good deal we currently have, best of both worlds.

It's an unsustainable deal, that's what it is.

The EU has evolved and moved on since we joined. Much of the friction in the UK is because of the nature of the movement.

How do you solve the Euro problems without closer financial integration? I don't see an alternative, and I suspect it will leave us on the margins.

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

How do you solve the Euro problems without closer financial integration? I don't see an alternative, and I suspect it will leave us on the margins.

The debate within the UK is a clear illustration of the challenges faced in bringing together numerous countries. The EU needed to be clearly defined at the outset. Not decades later. Just turning into a fudge of a mess.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

It's an unsustainable deal, that's what it is.

The EU has evolved and moved on since we joined. Much of the friction in the UK is because of the nature of the movement.

How do you solve the Euro problems without closer financial integration? I don't see an alternative, and I suspect it will leave us on the margins.

Agree on the euro, there will clearly have to be changes, but on the margins while retaining an influence is the best position for us to be in. I kind of agree we should be a non-member with close ties rather than a member with opt outs as this would be a more honest position - but these positions evolve over decades.

BLB53

Makes you realise what a good deal we currently have, best of both worlds.

..and yet they failed to get this message across convincingly in the referendum. I suspect the chancellor's scare campaign on jobs and the economy if we dared vote leave may have had quite a bearing by pushing some of the undecided into leave.

To be honest, the EU was not a big issue for me and I suspect most of the average public until the referendum campaign. Now it has become more like a religion on both sides.

andrewf75

BLB53 wrote: »

..and yet they failed to get this message across convincingly in the referendum. I suspect the chancellor's scare campaign on jobs and the economy if we dared vote leave may have had quite a bearing by pushing some of the undecided into leave.

To be honest, the EU was not a big issue for me and I suspect most of the average public until the referendum campaign. Now it has become more like a religion on both sides.

Agree 100%