If there is a second referendum ...

Enterprise_1701C

Arklight wrote: »

Capitalism works for the ruling class and not the poor. If it didn't no one would be poor. I completely agree with the French for protesting but if they think leaving the EU will make any difference they are going to be disappointed.

The fact that millions of people voted for Brexit one day, apparently as a blow for the ordinary person, then went out and voted for the Tories, a political party established to represent the landed gentry, the next - shows how bottle-necked any chance of real change is.

Socialism as certainly made the whole of the population equal in Venezuela - equally poor that is. Their rate of inflation sat at over 27,000% in May.

Has he criticised them at all just lately? He has gone quiet about Venezuela but was quite vociferous in his support of Maduro.

Crashy_Time

May will lose her vote, she will be forced to stand down, we will have a Hard Brexit and romantic notions of making it all go away by somehow over-turning a democratic vote will disappear, and the sky won`t fall in.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/07/warnings-no-deal-ports-chaos-misleading-industry-boss-says/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

Crashy_Time

cogito wrote: »

That's what happens when remainers are left to run the negotiations. The so called Withdrawal Agreement is a travesty of what the majority voted for. But of course, the government thinks it knows what’s best for us and anyone who thinks otherwise is thick.

Yes, and look where that has got them :rotfl: Unfortunately this attempt to over-turn Brexit isn`t that innocent, not by a long way, but the forces against the EU project are out of the bottle now, they won`t go away, and they are very strong forces.

Arklight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Socialism as certainly made the whole of the population equal in Venezuela - equally poor that is. Their rate of inflation sat at over 27,000% in May.

Has he criticised them at all just lately? He has gone quiet about Venezuela but was quite vociferous in his support of Maduro.

I'd be more interested in this (tedious) parallel if more of the people who resorted to it a) could find Venezuela on a map; b) understood any of its problems; c) actually knew what socialism is.

Most of them have it confused with communism, ironically as they don't really know what that is either.

I'm sure that doesn't apply to you though. No.

Enterprise_1701C

Arklight wrote: »

I'd be more interested in this (tedious) parallel if more of the people who resorted to it a) could find Venezuela on a map; b) understood any of its problems; c) actually knew what socialism is.

Most of them have it confused with communism, ironically as they don't really know what that is either.

I'm sure that doesn't apply to you though. No.

I do know where Venezuela is and, whilst I have been fortunate enough to not have lived under a socialist government since I was a child, I do know that Corbyn congratulated Maduro and has repeatedly said how much he admires how he has handled things. It is irrelevant whether we understand their problems, they are supposed to be massively oil rich. Whilst they have suffered from the reduction in oil prices, that in no way explains such a massive decline in their economy. That is down to Maduro.

Oh, and they might be better off under a communist regime, Cubans seem to like it well enough.

Keep_pedalling

Crashy_Time wrote: »

May will lose her vote, she will be forced to stand down, we will have a Hard Brexit and romantic notions of making it all go away by somehow over-turning a democratic vote will disappear, and the sky won`t fall in.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/07/warnings-no-deal-ports-chaos-misleading-industry-boss-says/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

Overturning (or reafirming) one democratic vote by a second democratic vote is what democracy is all about.

A hard brexit will be financially disastrous for this country and most MPs know this so I do not expect it to happen. There is not a single Tory who can unite the party, so if May falls it is difficult to see anything other than a GE being the next step. After that who knows.

Arklight

THE_Terry_Urr wrote: »

Very naive and if you really believe that please show us a country without capitalism that has no poor?

Oh and the millions of people didn't have the choice of a Brexit party, did they? Just the usual lot and even then they (very sensibly) chose the lesser of evils.

Millions of people could have voted for UKIP, you know, that single issue political powerhouse with one MP that now, along with the DUP, controls the Tory party as if it's some kind of helpless puppet for unaccountable tax dodging billionaires, religious bigots, and angry xenophobes.

Considering poverty is literally defined by the amount of imaginary money an individual has, and capitalism is literally a system of creating and allocating imaginary money, I would have thought the deficiencies inherent in some people not having any might be fairly obvious.

THE_Terry_Urr

Arklight wrote: »

Millions of people could have voted for UKIP, you know, that single issue political powerhouse with one MP that now, along with the DUP, controls the Tory party as if it's some kind of helpless puppet for unaccountable tax dodging billionaires, religious bigots, and angry xenophobes.

Considering poverty is literally defined by the amount of imaginary money an individual has, and capitalism is literally a system of creating and allocating imaginary money, I would have thought the deficiencies inherent in some people not having any might be fairly obvious.

I won't be alone in noting that you could not answer the question. Like many faux idealists you seem to struggle with any real justification for your delusional statements, so again Please show us a country without capitalism that has no poor?


Oh & BTW UKIP were discounted in 2017 because they turned too extreme. Unlike Germany, Austria, France, the Netherlands etc. the UK doesn't really do extremism in any numbers. But wait & see see if UKIP do so poorly next time around if Brexit is thwarted. If it isn't UKIP it weill be another pro-Brexit party for sure.

RyanEzio

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

Overturning (or reafirming) one democratic vote by a second democratic vote is what democracy is all about.

A hard brexit will be financially disastrous for this country and most MPs know this so I do not expect it to happen. There is not a single Tory who can unite the party, so if May falls it is difficult to see anything other than a GE being the next step. After that who knows.

A hard brexit will NOT be disastrous. We'll be trading on WTO rules which promotes free trade deals .



Lower prices for consumers. Removing tariffs enables us to buy cheaper imports



Free trade encourages greater competitiveness. Firms face a higher incentive to cut costs. For example, a domestic monopoly may now face competition from foreign firms.



Law of comparative advantage states that free trade will enable an increase in economic welfare. This is because countries can specialise in producing goods where they have a lower opportunity cost.



Economies of scale. By encouraging free trade, firms can specialise and produce a higher quantity. This enables more economies of scale, this is important for industries with high fixed costs, such as car and aeroplane manufacture.


and a weaker currency has many benefits



Exports become cheaper and more competitive to foreign buyers. Therefore, this provides a boost for domestic demand and could lead to job creation in the export sector.



Higher exports and aggregate demand (AD) can lead to higher rates of economic growth

Arklight

RyanEzio wrote: »

A hard brexit will NOT be disastrous. We'll be trading on WTO rules which promotes free trade deals .



Lower prices for consumers. Removing tariffs enables us to buy cheaper imports



Free trade encourages greater competitiveness. Firms face a higher incentive to cut costs. For example, a domestic monopoly may now face competition from foreign firms.



Law of comparative advantage states that free trade will enable an increase in economic welfare. This is because countries can specialise in producing goods where they have a lower opportunity cost.



Economies of scale. By encouraging free trade, firms can specialise and produce a higher quantity. This enables more economies of scale, this is important for industries with high fixed costs, such as car and aeroplane manufacture.


and a weaker currency has many benefits



Exports become cheaper and more competitive to foreign buyers. Therefore, this provides a boost for domestic demand and could lead to job creation in the export sector.



Higher exports and aggregate demand (AD) can lead to higher rates of economic growth

Free trade doesn't mean tariff free trade :wall:

Also a weak currency doesn't favour an economy that is oriented around services, especially if you can't even sell those services in places you don't have a regulatory agreement with run by governments that doesn't want foreigners in the market. Try opening a foreign high street bank in India.