If there is a second referendum ...

Enterprise_1701C

buglawton wrote: »

I see that today MPs voted down the motion of no confidence - 53% against to 47% for.

So we'll need another vote of no confidence now, to get the 'right' result

That is actually what labour are planning (according to one of their MPs), every time the government loses a vote they are planning to table a no confidence motion, probably so they can prove their "zombie government" theory, no government could operate with that sort of thing going on.

I heard someone say that you could ask Khorbyn what he wanted from Brexit, write down all that he asked for, gift wrap it, put it to a vote in parliament and he would have labour vote it down.

He is a very silly man who is playing politics with our lives, all he wants is to force a general election, it doesn't matter what other problems he causes, he is probably still convinced he won the last one

Enterprise_1701C

Herzlos wrote: »

Both sides can claim betrayal.



I'd be all for a referendum question on what kind of remain we want going forward. Do we remain a reluctant member or do we get more involved?

But it's disingenuous to think that Remain I'd currently unclear, the status quo is pretty well defined.

Remain is not a status quo. The eu are moving towards "ever closer union", the nature of the beast is that it is ever changing. They have already decided to do away with rebates (one of the things I suggested they would do and every remainer denied), vetos are going the way of dinosaurs and QM voting coming in, who is to say they will not decide that we have to have the euro and join Schengen?

The eu seem to have a habit of listening to what people want and then doing what they want.

As for disingenuous, do you remember Blair giving away part of our rebate? The eu were meant to have a meaningful review of farming subsidies, don't recall that ever happening.

Tromking

I can’t help but think that the Government are now moving to a position where they can claim that Brexit is impossible and therefore in the national interest they have no alternative other than to cancel Brexit.
The political fall out would be massive for the Tories, but they could probably quite credibly claim that they tried their their damnest but were foiled by elements in Parliament that were only interested in hindering the Government’s efforts and stopping Brexit. Two or three years out from a GE and with a different leader, the Tories might just get away with it. I don’t think the political establishment will want to risk a 2nd referendum, especially if the result only lands us back to our current state of Parliamentary deadlock.

Moby

buglawton wrote: »

At least you admit you agree with the Great Betrayal.

I hope their conclusions are right. As to it being a betrayal I think the betrayal were the promises made to people by brexiteers. You know the one the side of the bus and Fox's statement about how easy all those trade deals will be and Davis'....... how we could leave and have exactly the same conditions etc!

Blair on R4 this morning....speaks with a clarity so lacking in current leaders. .....as he said the mistake people made is that they thought they could negotiate with the EU......you can't! You make a choice between different options the EU make available.....either to be closer or further away politically and economically and each with automatic consequences. Hopefully the reality of that is now sinking in.

Moby

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

That is actually what labour are planning (according to one of their MPs), every time the government loses a vote they are planning to table a no confidence motion, probably so they can prove their "zombie government" theory, no government could operate with that sort of thing going on.

I heard someone say that you could ask Khorbyn what he wanted from Brexit, write down all that he asked for, gift wrap it, put it to a vote in parliament and he would have labour vote it down.

He is a very silly man who is playing politics with our lives, all he wants is to force a general election, it doesn't matter what other problems he causes, he is probably still convinced he won the last one

You are right we have a zombie Govmt that can't push its business through but is being propped up by the DUP because it suits the DUP. Its therefore the DUP that are playing politics with our lives. Their constituency is very small but their political power is much higher due to the absurdity of our electoral system!

You also totally misunderstand Corbyn's position.....he can't have Labour vote anything down.....Labour are as split on Brexit as the tories. He is a brexiteer leading a party which is 80% remain and he knows millions of potential Labour voters are also brexiteers. His one and only option is to oppose a 'no deal' brexit' and emphasis the damage such an outcome would have for the already disadvantaged. He would be happy with a soft brexit and blame the consequences for that on the tories. I disagree with him, I want to remain but you can't argue with his tactics given his position!

movilogo

mistake people made is that they thought they could negotiate with the EU.

People did not make that mistake. Verdict was to Leave! It was the Remain camp politicans who thought they could remain via backdoor by some magical deals agreed with EU.

Moby

movilogo wrote: »

People did not make that mistake. Verdict was to Leave! It was the Remain camp politicans who thought they could remain via backdoor by some magical deals agreed with EU.

I know you think this but May appointed brexiteers to do the 'negotiating' and I said they all lied to you during the campaign.

movilogo

May appointed brexiteers to do the 'negotiating' and I said they all lied to you during the campaign.

Politicians lie - shock horror - who would have thought?

TM is a remainer including chancellor etc. The Brexit ministers got frustrated and quit.

MobileSaver

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

who is to say they will not decide that we have to have the euro and join Schengen?

In which case there would probably be enough public support for yet another referendum and we can then all democratically decide what we want to do next.

That's the beauty of democracy; things can change if the majority of the people will it, we are not forced to stay on the train when it's obvious there's about to be one almighty train crash.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

They have already decided to do away with rebates (one of the things I suggested they would do and every remainer denied),

False.

The commission has proposed phasing out rebates, however this can only be done as part of the MFF budget setting process and every country has a veto on this process.

vetos are going the way of dinosaurs and QM voting coming in,

Highly Misleading.

QMV has for a long time been the norm in some areas of EU policy, and quite rightly as the UK was one of QMV's biggest advocates, but all the big areas (EU Army, Taxation, Budgets, Rebates, etc) still require unanimous agreement and therefore the veto remains.

The Commission proposes things all the time (they proposed tax changes this week, which Ireland promptly said they'll veto), but in each and every case where they try to change the rules on decision making from Unanimity to QMV they still require this to be Unanimously approved by the Council first. So the veto remains unless we choose to give it up.

who is to say they will not decide that we have to have the euro and join Schengen?

1. We have a Veto that cannot be taken away unless we choose to give it away.

2. They cannot force us to become signatories to treaties that we are not part of. That's entirely our decision to make.