PCN 3 from Ukpc

mitzy12

This is separate PCN from other posts.
Hi just a few questions on whether I can also include these points in Popla.

Received NTK on day52 , Popla code 8 days later via rejection letter
1 As i received NTK 1st, the "contesting the parking charge" at back of NTK tells me to appeal again at their site within 28 days. (OR pay £100). Is this not confusing as id already done this on day 26 and wanted popla code. So in the 8 days receiving NTK and then the popla code, my options they gave me was pay 100 or appeal at their site (again).

2 On NTK the fine is already up from £60 TO £100, B4 i got the rejection or popla code, so is this breaking the BPA CoP? as not allowed to increase whilst investigating an appeal.?
But back to £60 after Popla code letter.

3 Also says if we contest with Popla, "the parking charge will automatically increase to the higher rate." From the £100 already demanded! no mention of how much more or to what rate. Does this break BPA CoP?

4 Vehicle was apparently parked in " area where no parking is allowed" ( looks like a parking area with entrance) I was wondering if "period of parking" is the time actually spent parked and does it have to say how long on NTK (i.e number of minutes there)

5 Also are grace periods allowed when parked in a no parking area ( no car park)??
Was the driver allowed to go and view the signs and realise it is a no parking area and then leave. Will a grace period be applicable here?
On NTK just a time on when it was given the ticket, say 6.45pm and the 4 time stamped pics of 6.47:26 sec upto 6.48:13.. no mention how long car was there.
the reason I ask is, driver asked about a sign ahead which said designated bays and where that was, and parking attendant said to go and ask concierge, and 3 min later tickets were on the car and attendant driving off! so how can I prove driver had no grace period when it doesn't say how long he was there for!

6 Also regards to wording on PoFA 2012...not sure but looks like they know what to write now but if someone could have a quick look at this,,,, quote from NTk:-

"...… A paking charge was issued t the driver at the time but this has not been paid. We therefore had reasonable cause to obtain your details as you were the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of parking.

Uk Parking Control do not know the name and address of the driver. We therefore invite you, the registered keeper, to pay the parking charge or provide us with the name and current address of the driver so that we may write to them and request payment: and you should also pass this notice to the driver.

If, after a period of 28 days ( from letter), the amount requested in this notice has not been paid in full ( or we have not been informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper under the terms of, schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, will be liable to pay the unpaid parking charge."

Thanks in advance.

Le_Kirk

Does this relate to your other threads? Send a PM to a board guide (Crabman, Savvy or Soolin and ask them to emerge all your threads that relate to the same incident.

KeithP

Mitzy12, we've already had the discussion on 'one topic - one thread', see here:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5876899

Yet still you start a new thread.

mitzy12

im really really sorry, I don't know which thread to post in as I keep getting told contradictory things. I can see where this started now, I read a post and someone asked if anyone else has had their pcn cancelled by ukpc from late may. I responded and then again as things had changed and was updating. Then later I continued on THAT thread as a new pcn and that one I had received a NTK. when no one replied I wrote a new thread as Popla appeal and that's where the confusion lies and got told off for one topic one case. I wanted help weeks ago but unsure where to post and too long to explain that if someone reads all my posts then maybe they understand, im confused. so I continued on the old thread, which was different pcn, but just the next stage from old pcn( popla),when maybe I should have stared a new one in 1st place, then 4 days ago as got deadline loomimg, I'm stressing about ppc and what they going to do and thought id get help and advice and no one has responded to any of my parking points, only things they want to have a go at me at. Even in old threads i was directing people to read posts 6 and 7 of " UKPC ltd appeals" thread.
I was sarcastic once and got told off and since I have been patient as fruitcake asked what help do I need and so responded and no one answered. so I started this new thread. I asked if should open new thread ( as new case) and maybe that's why people are not responding and also thinking maybe that old thread is down pecking order and no one will see it now.

With the new thread I have only got stick again (and im sorry again if I did wrong threads) and still no responses. People are quoting other threads but surely then can see ive been begging for help and no one has helped.
quick fire responses about merging and duplicates. and even after Keith P quotes old thread and i see One topic ONE thread, and if u see last post keith i replied back! (saying it was new case) And again this is new case, the others got cancelled as explained earlier. ,( i thought id ask a few questions on old thread about popla appeal(fear of starting new) as it was same company (ukpc) sorry if this was not right.
Im so sorry if iv messed things up for your readers as i was trying to include things that i Thought might be ok ( forming my own conclusion) and just wanted to see if on right path and then i could construct an appeal letter.
Im actually wish someone could read post bt post carefully as they would see i started this new pcn a few days ago on an old thread but only cause i didnt know at time one topoc one case and also fear and just a few questions about challenging on certain grounds. E.G the question regarding grace periods?

mitzy12

just in case people want to have a go at me.... in summary
It started when i responded to another thread "Response from ukpc following intial reply" thread.
Then i started a thread " Ukpc no popla " and it wasn't duplicate just realised I had been told to start my own thread as had written on someone else thread (above). Got told off as per your one topic one case quote. when I was correct. put fear into me and didn't do anything till 20th august (18 days later) and this time I continued on old thread ( my !ST ever) " ukpc ltd appeal" when no one responded I went back to my 2nd thread " Ukpc no popla " and asked people their to help and read my " ukpc ltd appeal " thread ( as to not repeat info again) or duplicate post.

And since I have waited 3 days and no response so I thought it may be at bottom of pecking order or missed, I decided to start new thread so all clear and was "help with popla " thread. and now im getting the only responses about duplicates and no help to my questions which I have labelled and hopefuly is clear. if not im here to ask.

Im so thinking do I need to stress so much about this and now whether im posting write way, when all along if I get answer then im able to continue on thread and not having to keep posting for help. this is adding to stress not to mention time keep checking and posting crap when it would be easier to help me with my points..

I should pay the lesser amount of £60 on credit card then have it go to 100 plus all this stresss when I don't know what to do as I feel my draft woulf only have signage and landowner. not even sure I can put pics into my letter ( have pics) as not sure how to insert into computer so easier to pay £60 but cant afford it hence spent 30 hours and last few months researching.. that's why I wanted help early to give me time to learn things like pdf and pics.

thanks to those that did help and those who deliberately ignored me , u went aginst everything u stand for and let the ppc win... thanks.

p.s sorry if I was rude or sarcastic anytime. I hope I didn't overstep any boundaries regarding posting on wrong threads.


Then got

Le_Kirk

mitzy12 wrote: »

p.s sorry if I was rude or sarcastic anytime. I hope I didn't overstep any boundaries regarding posting on wrong threads.

No boundaries crossed but you are doing yourself a disservice because responders are having to dodge all over the forum to pull together your trail. Best to send a PM to Crabman, Savvy or Soolin and ask for all of your threads to be merged, that way you will get the best help.

mitzy12

pls read the whole last post..its a summary..

only ever started 2 threads b4 yesterday.
it was regarding 3 diff pcn incl this one. then with this pcn its got to popla so I posted, not on a new thread but on old 2 threads. so if want to merge 2 threads ...fine but it would confuse more as diff pcn and diff stages.

This thread (My 3rd)says it all regarding THIS case, my 1st post, pls if anyone can help with this .no need to look back just ask if not sure.. THANKS.

Fruitcake

I suggest you edit the title and the first line of your first post here to say this is a separate PCN to the other threads. Use Go Advanced to edit the title.

You should do the same on the others threads as well. It might actually be an idea to put PCN 1 in the title of the first one you received, PCN 2 in the second etcetera.

People haven't responded because you have three threads running but didn't explain that they are separate PCNs.

Do this first then sit down with a cuppa to read the rest of what I have put.

So, on to PoPLA.

What you have put on this thread looks nothing like a PoPLA appeal.

Look in the POPLA Decisions thread and find a successful one. Use that as a basis for the FORMAT of your appeal.

Introduction,

Numbered appeal point headings

Detailed individual appeal points

Decide which appeal points you are going to include using the template points available to you from Post 3 of the NEWBIES .

For example,

1 Not the Landowner
2 Not the person who is liable
3 No standing or authority to bring charges
4 Non POFA complaint NTK
5 Inadequate signage
6 Forbidding signage
7 Grace periods
8 ANPR inaccuracies/ICO failure
9 Etcetera

Make sure you only use points that are relevant to your case, don't just blindly copy what I have put here.

1 Not the Landowner
Copy and paste and amend the template point relevant to this

2 Not the person liable
Copy and paste and amend the template point relevant to this

3 Etcetera

From your first post on this thread, I would say the NTK is non POFA complaint as it does not have the correct wording from Schedule 4. You need quote what they have put in the NTK then quote what the relevant part of the POFA says, and point out the differences and why therefore it fails to meet the very dtrivt requirements.
For example, IF they have said,
If, after a period of 28 days ( from letter), the amount requested in this notice has not been paid in full ( or we have not been informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper under the terms of, schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, will be liable to pay the unpaid parking charge."

This is not the wording used in paragraph 9 of the POFA. It says, if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—


You need to go through the NTK line by line and compare it line by line with the POFA wording, and point out each and every time it is different. (The wording can be slightly different but the meaning must be the same.)

If they have referred to a letter which was the NTK and the POFA says an NTK, that's the same thing. But if the letter/NTK says 28 days after the letter, and not 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given, then that's different and should be points out.

Do you see the difference? It's referring to a different day than that quoted in the POFA.

It is very important though that when you quote something from the PPC that it is absolutely quoted word for word, so please double check everything you have written.

mitzy12

hi thanks , I appreciate ur answer. i wouldn't have noticed that little difference and how it is different meanings as the word "after" alters everything... thanks and i get it now so will look line by line..


Also my plan was to do a draft after reading all the threads regarding popla appeal.

I knew which things to include from above list.
my 1st post on this thread is not my appeal appeal!
they were some questions, i think break BPA CoP?? each question says what i think it breaks.
I really need a brief answer to my questions 2,3,4,5,..... especially the grace period,
as unsure if to include this as per the question...pls read above. thanks so much.

P.S I re-read and what was written on NTK word for wordwas same but when u saw "letter" in brackets, i had shortened just that from (beginning with the day after this Notice is given). so I take it was correct wording from them.. The rest of it is word for word... sorry.

Redx

some thoughts


1)they must have issued a windscreen NTD and this was appealed on day 26 , in the hope that they failed to issue a postal NTK to the keeper, but they remembered and then issued the NTK , CLEARLY THEY GOT LOST IN THE MIRE but if you appealed as keeper and got a popla code then that is the main thing, dont get bogged down as the popla code was the main ittem required here and the hope was that they would fail to send an NTK (WHICH DIDNT WORK OUT)


2) ITS NOT A "FINE" , its avariable SUM OF MONEY UKPC are claiming , which was £100 DISCOUNTED TO £60 for early payment


they sorted this out at the popla code stage letter so seems to be correct at this popla stage (the main stage)


3) they are saying that if you go to popla they are withdrawing the 40% discount for an early payment , this is correct, the charge goes back to £100 (the higher rate) and stays at £100 pending the popla outcome (so no discount if you go to popla)


4) they probably monitor "time on site" but should really monitor the parking period itself and should state this period


however, if NO PARKING was allowed in that area then they were not offering a parking contract and the driver was trespassing, so as there was no contract to park they cannot claim the £100 , all they can do is tell the landowner to sue the driver for trespassing - known as "forbidding signage"


5) the BPA CoP clause #13 details a grace period to read the signs and depart, so that clause comes into play here (a typical time would be say 10 minutes on site , to stop, read the signs , and depart)



6) not sure about that wording but you can allege that it fails the POFA2012 test and insist that the assessor checks it, compare it to a Parking Eye NTK wording just to be sure, as theirs ARE usually compliant

mitzy12

Thanks Redx. That was a big big help.Will now start doing a draft.

I have read prob every thread, but dont remember seeing anything or template about forbidding signage. Is there anywhere u can point me to. Would really appreciate it. cheers.