Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Filo25

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

I'm pleased you agree.
I doubt there will be another referendum, not only because time is limited but because included in the "firm options on the table" there must be an explanation of why these options exist. Do you really see the UK public being happy at the EU's attempts to continue jurisdiction in the form suggested when the referendum decided to leave?

Any competent campaigner for leaving the EU would make mincemeat of attempted explanations as to why the UK must do this or that ad infinitum just because the EU says so.

The timeline on a ref can be addressed, I think its unlikely the EU would refuse an extension to Article 50 as long as they knew there would be a clear and proceedable outcome at the end of the process.

I think the biggest problem with the "options on the table" is that the May Withdrawal agreement still isn't particularly clear in terms of the kind of deal/relationship we end up having, at least Remain and No Deal have the benefit of clarity.

As disastrous economically as I think "No Deal" would be, it would need to be on the ballot paper of any referendum on the issue, as I think it is the preferred choice of a lot of Brexit voters, otherwise quite honestly it just feels like a stitch up to a lot of people.

A_Pandiculation

Filo25 wrote: »

The timeline on a ref can be addressed, I think its unlikely the EU would refuse an extension to Article 50 as long as they knew there would be a clear and proceedable outcome at the end of the process.

I think the biggest problem with the "options on the table" is that the May Withdrawal agreement still isn't particularly clear in terms of the kind of deal/relationship we end up having, at least Remain and No Deal have the benefit of clarity.

As disastrous economically as I think "No Deal" would be, it would need to be on the ballot paper of any referendum on the issue, as I think it is the preferred choice of a lot of Brexit voters, otherwise quite honestly it just feels like a stitch up to a lot of people.

Unlikely given that all 27 member states must agree to an extension; look at their disagreements over the proposed deal and it's easy to see that there would be enough furore to make taking that decision in a timely manner unlikely.

There's enough if you read and digest what's on offer - and take into account the EU's love of fudge which can in future be used to their advantage. Theresa May has again suggested no deal is an option so as for your referendum, I think maybe you're beginning to understand why it is unlikely. We've already had a vote so the only choice remaining is "accept" or "refuse" the EU [STRIKE]stitch-up[/STRIKE] offer which if the vote does not succeed in parliament is unlikely.

So there's no stitch-up in terms of leaving, only on the terms of leaving and as I keep saying the UK voted to leave. It will certainly be seen as a stitch-up by many including remainers if, by whatever means, the UK is not seen to leave the EU.

A_Pandiculation

Herzlos wrote: »

The democratic thing to do would be to present the available options and open it up to the people.

No.
The options were clear on the referendum ballot paper; leave or stay.

Just because some don't like what leaving entails is not good enough reason to re-run the referendum; it's easy enough to find out what the EU is so arguing about leaving when it is known what we are leaving is dishonest.

The democratic thing to do would be to do what voters asked for and leave the EU.

Whether that is disastrous or beneficial it is what was voted for and after leaving, preferably when the consequences become truly apparent, would be the proper time to revisit the UK's future political relationship with the bloc.

andrewf75

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

No.
The options were clear on the referendum ballot paper; leave or stay.
.

yet you appear to reject the government's deal to leave.

If a second vote ends up happening, it will be the fault of leavers attempting to redefine the referendum result so that leave means only their version of leave.

cogito

andrewf75 wrote: »

yet you appear to reject the government's deal to leave.

Because we're not actually leaving. But that's what the government always wanted because they know what's best for us. Nothing new there.

Lungboy

It can never be undemocratic to have another vote. If the outcome is the same then great, nothing lost. If it's different, however, then that makes it very much worth holding.

andrewf75

cogito wrote: »

Because we're not actually leaving. But that's what the government always wanted because they know what's best for us. Nothing new there.

But that is factually incorrect. We *are* 100% leaving under her deal! That is fact.

You are choosing to interpret leaving as not leaving and I understand your view, but that doesn't make her deal not leaving. Leaving only means leaving, nothing else. OK, some of the things promised by leave campaigners are only possible by cutting all ties, but many other things they promised are only deliverable by retaining ties.

And the deal is very much not what anyone always wanted. While the continued ties protect the economy to a degree, as a non-member we lose our say. You can't seriously suggest anyone in our government thinks that is an advantage?!

Thrugelmir

Lungboy wrote: »

It can never be undemocratic to have another vote. If the outcome is the same then great, nothing lost. If it's different, however, then that makes it very much worth holding.

How many questions will the paper have to choose from? Not black and white.

Herzlos

Presumably the only 3 options available at this stage:


WTO
Mays Deal
Remain.


We could go further and add things like the Canadian or Turkish models. We'd need to have something like a Single Transferable Vote to avoid another deadlock though.

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

No.
...
The democratic thing to do would be to do what voters asked for and leave the EU.

So for the avoidance of doubt; are you saying it'd be non-democratic to ask the people what they want?


I'm fine with leaving, my problem is that May won't admit to the public what it entails. Someone is going to be upset and they need to be told about it.

Whether that is disastrous or beneficial it is what was voted for and after leaving, preferably when the consequences become truly apparent, would be the proper time to revisit the UK's future political relationship with the bloc.

I agree with this though; we'll only really know what we're doing once we've left. Hopefully it'll focus minds enough to get a majority on something.

MaxiRobriguez

Complete stitch up if the three options are WTO, May's deal and remain and it's a winner takes all vote, given that there will be two leave options on the ballet compared to one remain.