Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

A_Pandiculation

Arklight wrote: »

Communism removes power from the individual, socialism redistributes power from the elites to the populous.

Do people want to be dictated to? No I don't. I'm tired of a small cabal of super rich, a majority of whom can trace their ancestry back to a foreign aristocracy that arrived with William the Conqueror. Who eventually set up the Tory Party to represent their interests in parliament.

That's why I vote Labour.

Very noble.
But in reality a complete load of twaddle.
All that both communism and socialism do in reality is move the power from one greedy bunch to another and both history and the world today are full of examples, from Putin and his oligarch mates to China with the same and (like Russia) where inequality is rife and extreme.

You might not like aristocracy but at least you could be honest and admit that the equivalents which exist everywhere are no better. If you seriously think they are, why are you still here? You could vote with your feet and this as you probably realise would be far more effective for yourself than pointless internet conniptions, but those are easier aren't they.

Thrugelmir

lisyloo wrote: »

Did you mean right-wing side of the party or right as in correct?
I think it's only winnanble (and the blair facts back this up) if the leader if from the right side of the party.
I'd vote for chuka Umunna - such a shame he dropped out.

Labour has to unite together. Far wider divisions than the Tory party. When push comes to shove. As viewpoints aren't shared. Labour needs to change to become electable. Dogma overrules pragmatism. Most people only really care about what impacts them in their daily lives.

gfplux

What are the choices.

The deal

No deal

Something else


I prefer the deal.

Herzlos

I've gone off the deal; it doesn't satisfy anyone and makes us worse off.


So I think we're back at:


No deal or
No Brexit.




No Brexit will result in what's left of those 17m people feeling cheated, and a partial economic recovery, with lots of discontent.
No deal will hopefully satisfy those 17m people, and provide an incentive to get a deal sorted or unwind the whole thing.


The only way to get rid of the societial rift is, IMHO, to go no deal, let people see how bad it is, and then get a deal sorted. That way everyone will be moderately unhappy and it'll kill off the entire idea for another couple of generations.


So I think I support a no deal, now.

Lungboy

If we go No Deal and then want back in it'll never happen as it'll mean no rebate and accepting the Euro.

Herzlos

Lungboy wrote: »

If we go No Deal and then want back in it'll never happen as it'll mean no rebate and accepting the Euro.

If it's better than no deal then we'll accept whatever they offer us.

A_Pandiculation

Herzlos wrote: »

If it's better than no deal then we'll accept whatever they offer us.

At the moment though it's not better than no deal. If the UK doesn't leave the EU as the referendum decided then you're opening a whole new can of worms which frankly will be far, far worse for the UK than any no deal outcome.
Many people regardless of which way they voted will not be happy at not respecting the result of a democratic vote and are already saying so openly to media and in forums like this. If you think Brexit was populism you have seen nothing compared to what is likely to happen if the UK doesn't leave the EU.
UK politics has already proven itself pretty useless and not respecting the vote will only increase the opportunity for a newcomer party to gain power with the promise of respecting the wishes of the people. Such an outcome is likely to cause the UK far more harm than a no deal Brexit.

Filo25

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

At the moment though it's not better than no deal. If the UK doesn't leave the EU as the referendum decided then you're opening a whole new can of worms which frankly will be far, far worse for the UK than any no deal outcome.
Many people regardless of which way they voted will not be happy at not respecting the result of a democratic vote and are already saying so openly to media and in forums like this. If you think Brexit was populism you have seen nothing compared to what is likely to happen if the UK doesn't leave the EU.
UK politics has already proven itself pretty useless and not respecting the vote will only increase the opportunity for a newcomer party to gain power with the promise of respecting the wishes of the people. Such an outcome is likely to cause the UK far more harm than a no deal Brexit.

The only way we will see No Brexit is if people vote for that option in a referendum on the options for the final deal, I'm not sure you can really say that is ignoring the will of the people, the only way it can happen is if people have changed their mind when presented with the firm options on the table

Herzlos

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

At the moment though it's not better than no deal. If the UK doesn't leave the EU as the referendum decided then you're opening a whole new can of worms which frankly will be far, far worse for the UK than any no deal outcome.
Many people regardless of which way they voted will not be happy at not respecting the result of a democratic vote and are already saying so openly to media and in forums like this. If you think Brexit was populism you have seen nothing compared to what is likely to happen if the UK doesn't leave the EU.
UK politics has already proven itself pretty useless and not respecting the vote will only increase the opportunity for a newcomer party to gain power with the promise of respecting the wishes of the people. Such an outcome is likely to cause the UK far more harm than a no deal Brexit.

I agree almost entirely; we need to leave to satisfy those that want to leave. Then we'll be forced to do what is needed for the good of the country and won't be afforded the luxury of wasting any more time on it.



The democratic thing to do would be to present the available options and open it up to the people.

A_Pandiculation

Filo25 wrote: »

The only way we will see No Brexit is if people vote for that option in a referendum on the options for the final deal, I'm not sure you can really say that is ignoring the will of the people, the only way it can happen is if people have changed their mind when presented with the firm options on the table

I'm pleased you agree.
I doubt there will be another referendum, not only because time is limited but because included in the "firm options on the table" there must be an explanation of why these options exist. Do you really see the UK public being happy at the EU's attempts to continue jurisdiction in the form suggested when the referendum decided to leave?

Any competent campaigner for leaving the EU would make mincemeat of attempted explanations as to why the UK must do this or that ad infinitum just because the EU says so.