Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Arklight

kabayiri wrote: »

Typical lefty deflection eh.

It isn't an answer at all.

The argument for me is migration based on quality, not quantity, but you can choose to ignore that.

You still haven't come up with any viable answer as to how we accommodate rising numbers. The response so far, from both Labour and Conservative, has been nothing short of pathetic.

Why not have another go

I didn't realise that citing facts and verifiable figures was a 'lefty deflection.' I understand now why you find these debates so frustrating.

Very little will change vis a vis immigration, post Brexit. If you expect all those 'low quality' migrants to disappear I'm afraid you shall be very disappointed.

Arklight

wunferall wrote: »

Oh dear, more misplaced hatred Arklight?

Dyson moved production in the early noughties.
Why?
Well where is Dyson's most populous (and profitable) market, powering this British-based company to increase profits by 41% last year.
And what about the increased R&D here in the UK, are you going to ignore that?

Great isn't it, you advocating that we should make the most of dealing with our nearest neighbours the EU or it will cost us yet condemning a manufacturer for making stuff near their biggest market.
:doh:

I'm sure the Brexit heartlands have benefited hugely from Sir James' R&D centre, which typically doesn't hire anyone with less than a masters.

Dyson is also a privately held company so whose money did you expect Dyson to use? If you buy a Dyson vacuum the profits literally go to him. And the GDP is attributed to Malaysia, where it was made.

But then you of course knew that didn't you, being such an expert in economics.

Arklight

Herzlos wrote: »

London and the UK aren't world leaders in population density. We can take a huge number of extra people (easily double the population) without any issues if we plan and invest properly.
Take Tokyo; it's got a much higher population and density than London, but it's infrastructure is so far ahead of us it's embarrassing.

It's a rather moot point for many Brexit voters anyway Herzlos. Demographically most of them don't live in or anywhere near London, or anywhere they would actually encounter immigrants, or actually have passports.

cogito

Arklight wrote: »

I'm sure the Brexit heartlands have benefited hugely from Sir James' R&D centre, which typically doesn't hire anyone with less than a masters.

Dyson is also a privately held company so whose money did you expect Dyson to use? If you buy a Dyson vacuum the profits literally go to him. And the GDP is attributed to Malaysia, where it was made.

But then you of course knew that didn't you, being such an expert in economics.

In 1991, Dyson's company didn't exist. In 2018, his company employs more than 3500 people in the UK. That's 3500 families being supported as a result of his efforts plus several thousand more in other countries. Not to mention the other businesses that benefit from the money that those families spend.

How many jobs have you created by your efforts?

Arklight

cogito wrote: »

In 1991, Dyson's company didn't exist. In 2018, his company employs more than 3500 people in the UK. That's 3500 families being supported as a result of his efforts plus several thousand more in other countries. Not to mention the other businesses that benefit from the money that those families spend.

How many jobs have you created by your efforts?

Oh I see. I forgot you can't, shouldn't, mustn't, and cannot, cast a critical eye at rich people.

That's basically how our society works isn't it. The richest people have the loudest voices and devil take the hindmost.

Well, it is for you anyway.

Enterprise_1701C

Someone like James Dyson is rich through his own efforts, he has put in a lot of work, do you really think he would do it if he had to give all his money away?

I can't work out what you have against those that you call rich. A lot of them put a lot of work in. We have several millionaires as clients (no, we are not rich), and they put in A LOT of work, they work long hours, and they employ a lot of people. They deserve to earn that amount, they earn it.

And don't forget that they employ a lot of people, take away the incentive to work and what do you think will happen to all those people?

cogito

Arklight wrote: »

Oh I see. I forgot you can't, shouldn't, mustn't, and cannot, cast a critical eye at rich people.

That's basically how our society works isn't it. The richest people have the loudest voices and devil take the hindmost.

Well, it is for you anyway.

Except that I'm not rich and neither was Dyson when he started.

We know what kind of society you want. An equal society where everyone is equally impoverished because your politics of envy would drive out all the wealth creators. And wouldn't you be happy then?

Cakeguts

Arklight wrote: »

Oh I see. I forgot you can't, shouldn't, mustn't, and cannot, cast a critical eye at rich people.

That's basically how our society works isn't it. The richest people have the loudest voices and devil take the hindmost.

Well, it is for you anyway.

I find that attitude so weird. My parents built a house in the early 60s on a plot that was sold off along with several others. One of the owners next door who also built their house was an optician. So well off maybe not rich but not poor. Someone though who would be despised because they had some money. After a while they moved and the people who bought the house from them made their money selling foam for upholstery on market stalls. I seem to remember that the second owners had more money than the first. They also later had a shop also selling foam. Completely self made.



So in your world someone who worked hard selling from market stalls would have to support others who had exactly the same opportunity but couldn't be bothered? Why do you think that is fair?

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

So in your world someone who worked hard selling from market stalls would have to support others who had exactly the same opportunity but couldn't be bothered? Why do you think that is fair?

Is it fair that you think the person who needs help simply "can't be bothered"?
There's only a finite quantity of money and resources, so not everyone can be a successful businessman - supply and demand. Some people need to be at the bottom often through no fault of their own, and they may need some help. Those at the top can likely afford to help without any difficulty at all. A 10% loss of income could put a lot of people in serious hardship, but it's unlikely to ruin the life of someone like James Dyson.

Moby

wunferall wrote: »

Remainers will insist on ignoring this or diverting attention (unsuccessfully) by saying we predict the imminent downfall of the EU.
An example being Moby who suggests that I hate the EU!
Not so, Moby.
Just because I'm not in awe of the EU like some here seem to be does not mean that I hate them.
No, the idea broadly-speaking is great.
The implementation though is generally p*ss-poor.
Disagree all you want but read on and see why I think that to be the case.


Back to kabayiri and these EU challenges, here are just a few that are ongoing:

* Migration - unresolved. Borders up in EU countries still, despite Schengen. Turkey is being paid billions and the already-suffering Greeks are being further put-upon with migrants still arriving and camps already full.

* Italy & the budget issue coming to a head. It will be interesting to see whether or not the EU can kick this particular can further down the road.

* Spain, and the Catalonia fiasco still unresolved and beginning to rear its head again. As it will until resolution is reached. (Note to Arklight: because you seem unaware, Spain is part of the EU and so is Catalonia. Unless it achieves independence. )

* Hungary & the EU falling out, with the EU trying to impose its rule where it isn't wanted. Again it will be interesting to see whether or not the EU can kick this particular can further down the road too.

* Poland & the EU falling out too, with the EU trying to impose its rule where it isn't wanted. Yet again it will be interesting to see whether or not the EU can kick this particular can further down the road. It's becoming a lot of cans.

* Rising populism across the EU. The next European Parliament elections for MEP's is in May 2019; the results will be interesting.

* The EU's attempted bullying of Switzerland is increasing tensions between the two, with the Swiss (basically) refusing to accept EU attempts at increasing integration.


There you go.
No hate for the EU there, sorry.
No reasons to adore it though as so many in here must do, so quick are they to try and defend the indefensible.

Any long term political project is always going to have to face issues. This is your version of a well known list of current political problems being grappled with......so what....these issues would exist one way or another whether or not the EU was around. The point of the EU is to provide a means by which these issues are settled peacefully, without war, without an arms race etc. Who knows what your list would include if the EU didn't exist. Do you think we would all be living in peaceful harmony? No we wouldn't.... Compare European history before the EU existed with now and you'll realise you are rather selectively scratching around looking for reasons why the project is going to fall apart instead of more honestly acknowledging our grim past..... such as WW1, WW2, Franco-Prussian war, Napoleon, French revolutionary wars, Austria-Hungarian Empire, Spanish Empire, etc.

The migration/refugee problem was not caused by the EU. I agree the EU has not been effective and unified in dealing with it.....so how much worse would it have been had it not existed? All the European countries would have been doing their own thing and would have been at each others throats? At least Merkel acted. Who else has shown leadership? The EU is not responsible for African poverty and famine or Middle East conflict or even Catalan independence aspirations.

The interesting thing is despite their issues Italy, Spain, Hungary, Poland also still choose to remain in the EU don't they! They know how much worse things would be out in the cold and they have learned from their history. By the way increasing populism is a huge issue in the West generally. How does breaking up the EU solve it? Do you think the issues that led to populism would then simply disappear? and I know one man who would be very happy....Vladimir Putin.