Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Tromking

Moby wrote: »

Federation is the way of the future. It's inevitable. Juncker, Merkel, Macron know that. Also young people don't care about national sovereignty as much as the older generations and they are right. Many older Britons are suspicious of the federalist 'project' as you put it and do have a rather fixed mindset but that's not a good thing imo because they are living in the past and still have a whiff of British exceptionalism about them. This is an unhelpful hangover from our imperial past which is holding the rest of us back. The French and Germans learned humility during the war. For us Brits being on the winning side led to the illusion held by many that we were still a great world power instead of a bankrupt middle power.

If federation is the way of the future then someone needs to tell the peoples of Europe, the direction of travel in that regard is edging toward an eventual rejection of federalism IMO. In your usual desperation to paint the UK in a negative light, you totally ignore that just like every country France and Germany acts in own strategic national interest. The very idea that France doesn't share the British penchant for delusions of grandeur and exceptionalism is laughable. Its only because France now sees a Franco-German dominated EU federal state as the vehicle for the furtherance of the French national interest that separates them from the UK position. To be fair to the German people, I think they genuinely see themselves as Europeans first, although perhaps anyone would if the whole shebang was again set up to suit the strategic and economic national interest of Germany and had a default setting
that had Germany leading along with France.

kabayiri

HornetSaver wrote: »

...
As someone whose primary opposition to Brexit was that there was no plan for what to do with the freedom of leaving, and therefore felt that the opportunities to be had were dwarfed by the challenges that were not being addressed, the idea of a long transition period appeals to me. But a transition period is exactly that. Transitional.
...

There was no plan for our place in the EU.

Sure, there was an EU plan, for much tighter integration on many things, but it wasn't inspired by the UK.

Our support for FOM was luke warm. We have never built enough houses and other infrastructure since FOM has been in place, even when the credit lines were flowing before the GFC.

We have high levels of net migration for every year since the GFC, and yet at the same time, cuts to some councils equivalent to a third of their budget.

And then the politicians tell us that this is a net benefit. :mad:

I think voters smell b***s*** when they see it.

Joan_number_1_2

ukcarper wrote: »

Is it that 54% includes EU states which accounts for 44 of that 54, so 56% of our exports go to non EU countries of which less than one fifth goes to countries with EU trade deals.

Thank you.
As usual the remain faction here trying to invent an alternative truth.

andrewf75

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

It was very obvious that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market but other countries have a customs arrangement with the EU, don't they?
If the problems weren't there before but they are now for EU members only then it very clearly is the fault of the EU.
See if you can name any other global organisation where you are encouraged to join but can't leave without such problems?
It demonstrates the EU mindset perfectly TBH, not having any system in place for any member that might want to leave; they are so confident of their vision for ever-closer integration that they cannot (or rather could not) imagine anyone ever wanting to leave.
Now they perpetuate the myth of difficulty purely to dissuade others who might in future want to leave.
The only reason for possible border difficulties is because of the EU's insistence.
Porous borders weren't a problem for millions of "refugees", and borders don't seem to have made the EU's trade with Russia difficult do they?
To put it very bluntly it looks very much like the EU are pooping themselves at what direction other member countries will take.
Hungary, Poland and Italy just for a few examples.

There is a system in place for leaving. Leaving is quite straightforward. What is complicating it is the UKs attempts to dodge difficult decisions and basically have it's cake and eat it. We can have a border across Ireland, in the Irish sea or no border if we remain in some kind of customs union. When you vote for radical change you can't then expect everything to just carry on as before. No one is suggesting we can't trade across the border as the EU does with all its other neighbours and every other country in the world does. But you have to have a border somewhere. So if any of those other countries leave do you imagine they will insist on an open border?! They will leave precisely so that they can put one up!

Thrugelmir

andrewf75 wrote: »

So if any of those other countries leave do you imagine they will insist on an open border?! They will leave precisely so that they can put one up!

Were you around in 70's? I suspect not. The Irish border is totally porous. Geography alone makes it impossible.

Scotland votes for independence. Scotland wants to join the EU........;)

StevieJ

Thrugelmir wrote: »

UK elections have been decided for decades in the same many. Why are we now questioning democracy? Same principles could be applied to the EU leaders that oppose the UK's view. Many of whom have been elected on even lower electoral support. Macron only polled 25%. Hardly a ringing endorsement when viewed from afar.

Are you saying that this is true?

over half the electorate decided that it was too much and wanted out

Thrugelmir

Some more mundane news reflecting the unease with FOM. Appears that Eastern European gangs have been muscling in on Big Issue sellers pitches in our locality. A lady was arrested in connection with this activity. As all Eastern Europeans do , she carried an ID card along with passport. Of more interest to the police was the utility bill she provided to prove her place of residence. The utility bill related to a property some 2 hours drive away.

A visit to the said property found some 15 males of Eastern European origin. None had ID cards or passports. Speculation is that the lady is a paid gangmaster.

Good to see that like drugs and people trafficking that the police are operating over County Lines. To address the increased levels of crime by organised gangs. An unwelcome feature of FOM.

Thrugelmir

StevieJ wrote: »

Are you saying that this is true?

French have a totally different electoral system for President. Neither first past the post nor proportional representation. Even the mighty Merkel only polled 33% of the electoral. A decline of 8%.

andrewf75

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Were you around in 70's? I suspect not. The Irish border is totally porous. Geography alone makes it impossible.

Just about… I agree, a border is not a viable solution. So choose one of the others. Stay in the customs union – or a customs union/partnership or whatever – or get tough with the DUP and make Northern Ireland a special case and keep it inside the customs union. I fully understand the difficulties with each option, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to choose one!

Thrugelmir

andrewf75 wrote: »

get tough with the DUP and make Northern Ireland a special case and keep it inside the customs union.

You obviously have no idea of the fuse that will get lit. How many peace walls still exist that divide certain communities in NI? Easy to tell others what to do from the safety of an armchair or a gated community in Brussels.