Court Claim - AoS Complete

Loadsofchildren123

That's a good point, arguing that they are obliged to tell the BPA what their grace period is, so what is it, and why haven't they produced evidence of it, knowing that the whole case concerns the grace period.


Hard to follow the logic of maximum STAY, it's impossible to predict (particularly in the case of overly courteous drivers - how very dare you!) how long the driving around afterwards will take, and who looks at their watch to note the exact time they drove in? This illustrates the DJ bingo risk factor.

nosferatu1001

Indeed, an unknown point at which the STAY starts is also key - how can you contract when the start point (exactly where the clock starts ticking) is unknown, the time as THEY see it is unknown, etc?

Bonkers
Shame you didnt get costs - you should have been allowed ordinary costs. Its why we stick a costs schedule in before hand - it is at least in the pack written down

Loadsofchildren123

And the moment you enter (and your "stay" starts) you haven't had a chance to see the signs and decide whether or not to accept the temrs offerered, so there can be no contract. I don't see how you can arrive, drive in, park and take, say, 4 minutes to do that and find/read the signs, then decide to accept them, and for someone to then say that you entered into the contract 4 minutes earlier. You only enter into it at the very moment you read and accept the signs. That's the entire blooming point of the grace period at the start of any parking. If the stay commences immediately and only ends on driving out at the exit, what are they for? Muddled thinking, but in the end it didn't matter because they couldn't prove what their grace period was and you only overstayed by 14 minutes.

Coupon-mad

Tommer123 wrote: »

So, the hearing was delayed by about 20 minutes and the case was heard by a different judge than planned.

We went into a small court room, judge behind a long desk and myself and PE's solicitor sat facing him. The judge mentioned that he had only just picked up the case but had read the witness statements.

I don't feel like he had looked at my defence at all. When asked by the judge what my main defence point was, I said that I was not parkedfor the alleged overstay, it was within grace period and that I couldn't have done anything more to leave the site quicker.

We then explored the difference between staying and parking to which the judge decided the car park was a maximum STAY... so I tried to move the focus back to the grace periods. We debated 13.2 & 13.4 of the BPA CoP heavily for nearly half an hour but the judge decided the paragraphs referred to the same, single minimum 10 minute period (dammit).

One of the points I made was that before ANPR cameras were used in car parks, you would naturally have (free) time to park, walk to a ticket machine and purchase a ticket, my point was that there should still be time to at least find a space and park in an ANPR operated car park,

I'm not sure he fully understood my point and said something like 'but you'd never have a ticket machine as well as ANPR cameras', this was my chance to make PE look like the crooks they are as the PE car park opposite the court did in fact have ANPR cameras AND a ticket machine!!

I'm glad I was able to make this point and think it may have contributed to the outcome slightly.

Ok, back to the BPA CoP, he was very interested in the part (I think paragraph 13.3?) that states the PPC must tell the BPA what te grace period is. The judge heavily questioned their solicitor on this and their only reply was 'my instruction is that it is 10minutes' they both searched through the PPC's evidence pack for evidence of this but nothing could be found (if it was in the retail company instruction contract, they couldn't see it because the T&C's text was so small).

The judge made the point that the grace period could in fact be 12 minutes or 14 minutes for this site and he didn't seem to like the fact that the PPC could actually just make it up as they go along (ie. in court cases!).

He summarised the case in his own words and asked us both what our final main points were - (I had to think carefully so as not to make a point that he had already dismissed so this was tricky) so I said there was absolutely nothing more I could have done to exit the site quicker. [Earlier in the case their solicitor actually suggested I was an overly-courteous driver and therefor it may be my own fault for not leaving on time!:eek:].

I can't remember what their solicitors main point was but I think they referred back to the parking / staying argument.

The judge found in my favour (and I can't for the life of me actually remember the exact wording he used!) and that was it, he asked if there was anything further and we both just said thank you.

I totally forgot until we were stood up and about to leave to ask about claiming my own costs, when I mentioned it to the judge he immediately dismissed me, it was very awkward because I forgot to ask about it at the appropriate time.

Hard work paid off and I thank everyone again for their contribution and time

:beer:

Added paragraphs just so I could follow it better - well done to you!

Another one bites the dust!

BTW the answer to the 'dammit' point is here; this should have been in anyone's ''grace periods'' defence evidence pack:

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Kelvin Reynolds, Head of Public Affairs and Policy at the British Parking Association (BPA) says there is a difference between ‘grace’ periods and ‘observation’ periods in parking and that good practice allows for this.

The Judge VERY nearly erred badly, so glad to hear you pulled it around.

:T