Childcare is bloody expensive!

Comms69

Red-Squirrel wrote: »

Sorry, but that's a load of rubbish. Its not that long ago that women didn't have a lot of choice about children coming along and they were mouths to feed for a few years and then bodies to send out to work when they were old enough!

This thread is so sexist, I might save it for when people say "Oh but women have equality now".

Sorry how is it sexist?


one or two comments may be touching the line, but the overall theme is far from it.


Claiming something is sexist, without providing any reference is just a lazy stand.


Women do have equality. The fact you claim they don't, again with no evidence, is lazy.

Kynthia

Comms69 wrote: »

Sorry how is it sexist?


one or two comments may be touching the line, but the overall theme is far from it.


Claiming something is sexist, without providing any reference is just a lazy stand.


Women do have equality. The fact you claim they don't, again with no evidence, is lazy.

It's sexist to claim that mother's should stay home but not fathers, that mothers are selfish for working but fathers are selfless as they are providing for their families.

There isn't equality when women are less likely to be hired for jobs due to being of child-bearing age, if numerous women lose their job due to having a baby, when women are paid less for doing the same job, when women are attacked and then blamed for it and the men aren rarely convicted for it, etc. There isnt equality when women's voices carry less weight than a mans; for example when womens pain is taken less seriously by health professionals, when women are less likely to be granted a payrise when they ask for one, when women are more likely to be interrupted when speaking in meetings, when women starting businesses are less likely to receive funding, etc. We've come a long way but there's still a way to go.

Comms69

Kynthia wrote: »

It's sexist to claim that mother's should stay home but not fathers - in what way? I think that mother make better parents, especially to younger children. I believe that parents have different roles to play in a child's life and that both contribute in different ways. That is not sexist. , that mothers are selfish for working but fathers are selfless as they are providing for their families. - That is not sexist. I don't necessarily agree with that comment, but it's a fair opinion.

There isn't equality when women are less likely to be hired for jobs due to being of child-bearing age - ok, can you cite the statistic? Where's the source of this study? , if numerous women lose their job due to having a baby - again where's your source? Pregnancy discrimination is so far from a pandemic that I cant take your point seriously. , when women are paid less for doing the same job - they aren't. That is pure fiction. again, show me a source. , when women are attacked and then blamed for it - blamed? I agree that is wrong, though again it's not systematic. However giving advice, such as "stay in well lit areas" "stay together" isn't victim blaming. And statistically men are far more likely to be victims of public sphere violence than women. Rape and sexual assault is far more likely to happen from someone known to the victim than not. and the men aren rarely convicted for it - source? Because in fact men are more often convicted of violent crime than women. , etc. There isnt equality when women's voices carry less weight than a mans; for example when womens pain is taken less seriously by health professionals - source of study? , when women are less likely to be granted a payrise when they ask for one - and again source? , when women are more likely to be interrupted when speaking in meetings - and again source? , when women starting businesses are less likely to receive funding, etc. We've come a long way but there's still a way to go.

Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say this.


What you say does happen. Sexism exists. HOWEVER it is not systematic. The law doesn't allow sex discrimination. So whilst it exists, it does not mean equality doesn't exist.


Now I'm happy to read your source material for your claims. But if you are just writing a list of a small number of experiences, then I will give it less weight.

ViolaLass

Comms69 wrote: »

I think that mother make better parents, especially to younger children. I believe that parents have different roles to play in a child's life and that both contribute in different ways. That is not sexist.

Unless you have scientific evidence for your view, then it is a sexist opinion. There is nothing that a mother can do for a child (once birth and breastfeeding are done) that a father cannot.

Comms69

ViolaLass wrote: »

Unless you have scientific evidence for your view, then it is a sexist opinion. There is nothing that a mother can do for a child (once birth and breastfeeding are done) that a father cannot.

That’s just not true.

It’s an opinion. Based upon experience. I don’t proclaim it to be factual, and therefore do not require a scientific study.

Labelling a conservative view as sexist is exactly the problem. You aren’t willing to discuss or debate the issue, you simply label it with negative connotations and dismiss any further input.

Now with that said, men and women are different.

To proclaim otherwise is simply naive at best. Here is a link to a report of a study: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-it/201306/are-women-really-more-compassionate%3famp

Now to return to my point. Whilst I cannot cite a definitive answer, as there isn’t one, studies exist which could be used to argue either case.

The main point for me is that careers which deal primarily with caring and with nurturing are dominated by women. Nursing ( the most trusted career just coincidentally ) is massively dominated by women, a role which is very similar in the basic requirements to early years parenthood. - it doesn’t appear to me to be a coincidence.

I believe that on the whole men are less suited to the role of early years parenthood, whether by psycological, physical or societal barriers - I wouldn’t like to pick as there’s arguements for all.

Now with that said, I believe that parenthood is the most important role a human can play. And rather than belittling the role ( which I don’t think you are suggesting I am ), I admire it.

I don’t think that bringing home the pay cheque is more or less important than caring for the child. I just believe in traditional parental roles, for want of a better phrase.

There is a strong bias that if a man has custody of a child, especially a young child, the mother must be really bad. But the same is not true of the reverse. It’s a real stigma that is showing no signs of shifting. That is sexism, whether you judge the man - ‘how bad must she be, for him to be in charge’; or the woman ‘what did you do to ‘lose’ your kids. - that’s a societal problem that as far as I can see no-one is addressing. The reason prinarily is because it simply doesn’t happen that often.

ViolaLass

Comms69 wrote: »

To proclaim otherwise is simply naive at best. Here is a link to a report of a study: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-it/201306/are-women-really-more-compassionate%3famp

That article suggests that men and women may, for various reasons, express compassion in different ways. That doesn't mean that the woman should be the one staying at home and the man going to work.

Labelling women as innately better at looking after kids is a sexist view (you may think it a sensible view but labelling someone as being better at something simply because they are a certain gender is the very definition of sexism).

I think couples should work it out between themselves. For example, my husband and I share care of our daughter pretty equally. He's better at some aspects of parenting than I am, primarily because he is more patient than I am. To force me to be at home more and him less would do our daughter no favours.

As for the sexism that you see as a societal problem that no one is addressing - I'm addressing it right now! We can all speak up against it. Accepting it or pretending that it isn't really sexism won't make it go away.

Comms69

ViolaLass wrote: »

That article suggests that men and women may, for various reasons, express compassion in different ways. That doesn't mean that the woman should be the one staying at home and the man going to work. - huh? I didn’t claim it was. Can you please read read what I said; to clarify it was that men and women are different in this case in the way they experience compassion.

Labelling women as innately better at looking after kids is a sexist view (you may think it a sensible view but labelling someone as being better at something simply because they are a certain gender is the very definition of sexism). - but I’m not labelling. I’m providing an opinion based upon experience. Let me try a different tact: men are typically better at manual labour. This is down to primarily being bigger and stronger than women. There are ofcourse exceptions. I’m not saying that you should stay at home and look after the kids, you can do whatever you want. But this is what I believe and what my family did.

I think couples should work it out between themselves. For example, my husband and I share care of our daughter pretty equally. He's better at some aspects of parenting than I am, primarily because he is more patient than I am. To force me to be at home more and him less would do our daughter no favours. - right, but who’s forcing you?

As for the sexism that you see as a societal problem that no one is addressing - I'm addressing it right now! We can all speak up against it. Accepting it or pretending that it isn't really sexism won't make it go away.

I’m sorry, discussing and addressing are two separate things. I am happy to discuss it though.

My point is, you saying that men are the same as women when it comes to parenthood is simply not the reality. We have the same ability, in that both genders are capable of carrying out the same tasks and jobs required to keep a child safe and well. But the reality is very different.

To clarify I’m not saying that YOU are a better parent, you might be, but I don’t know you as the individual. I’m making a broad statement which in my experience is true. Whether that’s down to income levels or not I don’t know- the great British tradition of not asking how much one earns.

The point about societal discrimination is that the single father position, when having primary care, is seen as the result of some form of criminality or at the very least severe incapacity of the mother to do the role. The reason though is mainly down to the courts not awarding contact arrangements in an equal way. Custody, for want of a better word, is most often given to the mother- even in cases where they were not the primary care giver. That is a societal issue.

You can certainly interpret my comment as sexist if you wish, I’m not here to change your perspective. I’m simply giving my opinion.

I think there’s a massive difference between equality - which is what my original point alluded to and individual sexist incidents.

For example: despite men making up between 30-45% of victims of domestic violence ( even the most drastic studies accept that around 3 in 10 victims are male ) the government ; by proxy society; does not provide equal nor proportionate funding to male shelters.

That is inequality on a national level.

I doubt that individual attitudes will change. For what it’s worth I accept my opinion is not the popular one. But the example should be set by the state.

Red-Squirrel_2

40% of managers avoid hiring younger women to get around maternity leave

75pc of firms 'will not take women of childbearing age'


Research shows hospital staff take women's pain less seriously, spent less time treating them and are more likely to wrongly diagnose physical pain as 'just emotional'




Maternity discrimination is pushing women out of work - and it's time to shout about it

choccielover

Comms69 wrote: »

My point is, you saying that men are the same as women when it comes to parenthood is simply not the reality. We have the same ability, in that both genders are capable of carrying out the same tasks and jobs required to keep a child safe and well. But the reality is very different.
.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

My husband is our daughters primary caregiver and is without a doubt a better parent than me, and according to all our female friends and all the school mums, them too.

He gets her up, makes breakfast, makes her packed lunch and ensures she has the appropriate school kit for the day's activities, drops her off whilst practicing her spag or maths in the car, picks her up and then feeds her a cooked meal, does her homework with her, baths her and puts her to bed. If she is ill or restless it's him she goes to, if she is ill it's him that takes the day off.

We both adore her, but he is the most "parenty" and whilst I accept he may be in the minority's he isn't the only one. It isn't a women's right to be the "better" parent, either can do it. How many men aren't given the choice or option to do this by women who assume they can't

Comms69

That’s a survey of 500 managers, my employer on their own has close to that number. It’s hardly definitive study. On top of which, as pointed out in the very same article, it’s illegal. That’s not inequality, that’s just a bad study. Conducted by a law firm, who take on employment tribunals on behalf of clients. It’s called an adverticle.

The second link didn’t work for me, but it’s clearly not true based upon the headline.

The third provides very few statistics. Those that it does are not sourced. Given waiting times in AandE rarely reach the target of 4 hours, I’d suggest the waiting 49 minutes compared to 65 minutes, is more likely down to the pressures on the service at the time. On top of which it just accepts the routinely defunct claims that degree marks are awarded negatively against women and the pay gap. Women consistently out perform men in education and women aged 20-30 in the whole earn more than men in the same bracket.

The last link is again an adverticle. For a start the statistics are not backed up by source material, but then to cap it off ( or start it off ) the claim is the 75% of women face some form of discrimination. But that is not necessarily linked to their gender. Lots of forms of discrimination are perfectly legal, and rightly so. 50% of women claim having children and maternity had a negative impact on their career- well yes being out of work for the better part of a year will do that; in the sense that those working will have advanced, whilst you return to the position you left. On top of which, the website is advocating for businesses to be forced to employ someone and provide flexible working etc. Frankly these are businesses, it’s ludicrous that personal choices and decisions should impact on them in such a way. It goes on to say that they want legislation to govern the self employed?! At which point to be honest, it’s not worth continuing. If your self employed and discriminate against yourself, you should clearly take yourself to court.

Like I said, can I please have some actual studies, with controls and stats and graphs and background information.