Childcare is bloody expensive!

Comms69

Yes, sorry for wanting to see the evidence behind these claims, how silly of me for considering the idea but asking for info.

I’m asking for impartial scientific studies, as I said two of links you posted were clearly asvertising their own services.

I’m perfectly happy to consider actual evidence. HOWEVER, the point I’m making is that the state, society if you will, does not encourage inequality against women. In fact the opposite is true.

You clearly refused to actually debate any points I raised about validity, probably because you can see I have a valid point on that front.

Instead you resort to attacking me personally- something I haven’t done.

Frankly your opinion of me is irrelevant. We don’t know each other and I suspect I would consider you ‘ the most disturbing kind of woman ‘ were we to meet, the difference is I wouldn’t say that you you.

Savvy_Sue

Comms69 wrote: »

The main point for me is that careers which deal primarily with caring and with nurturing are dominated by women. Nursing ( the most trusted career just coincidentally ) is massively dominated by women, a role which is very similar in the basic requirements to early years parenthood. - it doesn’t appear to me to be a coincidence.

Correlation is not causality. Surely nursing is dominated by women because it was traditionally seen as an acceptable line of work for women, and was not open to men! One might wonder too how many nurses wanted to be doctors before that line of study was open to them.

Admin and secretarial work also used to be seen as 'female' jobs - the early lady typists were called 'typewriters' and it was felt that the work was better suited to women than to men!

Comms69 wrote: »

I believe that on the whole men are less suited to the role of early years parenthood, whether by psycological, physical or societal barriers - I wouldn’t like to pick as there’s arguements for all.

You didn't see those recent programmes on the BBC "No more boys and girls"? From a very early age we treat boys and girls differently - put a toddler in a dress and carers will offer 'girl' toys; put a toddler in dungarees in primary colours and carers will offer 'boy' toys. But actually they're not developmentally different - apart from whether they can wee in your face when you change their nappy!

It was a very interesting watch.

Comms69

No it’s not, but it is interesting that it continues to be so dominated. Teaching is another example, and not one where that same argument applies

I think going that far back is counter productive, the jobs were seen as female jobs because in many cases jobs were split into manual/physical jobs and admin style jobs.

That does sound interesting. However I think we should treat children differently to a point. Something I’d certainly take a look at

ViolaLass

Comms69 wrote: »

No it’s not, but it is interesting that it continues to be so dominated. Teaching is another example, and not one where that same argument applies.

Teaching is female dominated as it is seen as a caring profession and that's an area that has been traditionally thought of as female. Look at STEM subjects - far more male teachers there than in, say, primary schools. STEM is traditionally a male area, caring is traditionally female.

All of this is just society, not genes, not 'natural ability', just society telling us what we're supposedly better at. You can say "But you can study whatever you want" and that may now be true but children are adults are affected by societal expectations.

Try reading some Cordelia Fine or any research into supposed innate differences between men and women and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Incidentally, no, there is no need to treat boys differently to girls, apart from teaching boys to stand up when they wee. Children are children foremost. They don't play with their toys using their genitals.

Comms69

But that’s my whole point. Women tend to go into caring professions due to their nature. Teaching used to be male dominated, but not anymore.

Who in society? Where is this societal pressure? Women consistently achieve better qualifications, why do they not choose these subjects? Why do countries with more oppressive and conservative societies have more women in STEM careers than more free and liberal societies?

I am genuinely asking you how is society forcing women away from these decisions? Perhaps you can share your chosen career and how you made that decision?

I will do, but presumably there is a lot to read, can you summarise the position or point me in the right direction?

Just to be clear though, the differences between boys and girls are far more than their genitalia.

Tabbytabitha

Comms69 wrote: »

But that’s my whole point. Women tend to go into caring professions due to their nature. Teaching used to be male dominated, but not anymore.

Who in society? Where is this societal pressure? Women consistently achieve better qualifications, why do they not choose these subjects? Why do countries with more oppressive and conservative societies have more women in STEM careers than more free and liberal societies?

I am genuinely asking you how is society forcing women away from these decisions? Perhaps you can share your chosen career and how you made that decision?

I will do, but presumably there is a lot to read, can you summarise the position or point me in the right direction?

Just to be clear though, the differences between boys and girls are far more than their genitalia.

Teaching of young children was never male dominated because it was lower paid.

Most of your questions are just naive and written as if by someone living in the 70s or earlier. It must be strange to live in such a time warp.😕

Comms69

The data I found suggest female teachers from 1975-2016 went from around 49% to 65% of the workforce. I can look further back, but aside from times of war during the first and Second World War, I would expect that the trend continues similarly going further back.

If my questions are so naive, surely you should be able to quickly explain it?

It’s very easy to dismiss someone opinions, I could do the same. To be honest it’s a position often taken when you can’t actually give an answer.

I would however suggest that women make different choices in life to men - on the whole. And it’s not societal pressure, but rather choice that is the reason.

It’s funny that your viewpoint is automatically the correct one and mine is somehow automatically old and therefore bad.

Why not engage in a discussion?

ViolaLass

"That article suggests that men and women may, for various reasons, express compassion in different ways. That doesn't mean that the woman should be the one staying at home and the man going to work. - huh? I didn’t claim it was. Can you please read read what I said; to clarify it was that men and women are different in this case in the way they experience compassion. "

Except the article doesn't claim anything about how the genders experience compassion, only how it is expressed. That expression is heavily influenced by society.

Choices are also heavily influenced by societal pressures. There is research to support this view. Try reading Cordelia Fine, for example.

Comms69

I’m sorry but it says exactly that, that different portions of the brain activate when men and women experience compassion.

It goes on to say how compassion is expressed can be different.

Savvy_Sue

If you need a demonstration that it's societal, look at Finland. Don't know how it is now, but when DH was there 35+ years ago, female graduates outnumbered men HUGELY, in all subjects. If he'd been looking, his friends could have introduced him to numerous intelligent, educated Finnish ladies, DESPERATE to marry a man prepared to use half a brain instead of just brawn.

Now, my theory is this: you could not marry in Finland unless you were literate, and could demonstrate this. Men - sweeping generalisation here and in my experience - traditionally resist being 'tied down' in marriage. So the men would resist education, to remain 'free', and the women would learn, and learn, and learn. Engineers, scientists - degree courses full of women, with one or two men.

And just as in England men have sometimes been reluctant to marry a women better educated or earning more than them, so in Finland women wanted to marry men able to do more than drink and swing an axe.

BTW, the Finnish education system is radically different to the UK now, so I'm suspecting some of these things have changed.