Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

As time passes you will see we can't cherry pick a deal. Its' not them being unfair. Its the rules of the club. We chose to leave. Why can't you see that?

If that is true then to comply with the referendum result we should cease negotiations and leave now.
To do otherwise very clearly would go against the wishes of those voters.

Moby wrote: »

See previous answer. They will stay united despite your hopes of fragmentation. The divisions are in this country and you have nothing it seems to offer remainers so those divisions will continue.

No, you look at my previous reply. The EU are already divided - as is only natural when you try and organise 27 different nations with differing cultures, histories, languages and outlooks. Such divisions as exist in this country are purely the result of those - like yourself - attempting to subvert a democratic decision. Given recent events in Spain you would, it appears, if you were Spanish rather than British face the possibility of incarceration for disagreeing with an official government position.

Moby wrote: »

If we get the deal that you want in contrast everyone will be poorer and we'll be ruled by the likes of Jacob-Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove etc. Such types are on the extreme right wing of the tory party. Support for the extremist views they hold is limited. Crunch time is coming!

Hey it's not me that wants it: it's the EU.
They are the ones pushing for it as shown very clearly.
Why do you keep ignoring that fact?
If (and try to be honest) IF Mogg/Gove/Johnson achieve their aims it will be as a direct result of the continual push of Europhiles like yourself who are determined to ignore a democratic vote.
At least you are correct insofar as crunch time is coming.
It seems that you don't like the direction it looks like taking the UK in.

Moby wrote: »

You brexiteers claim you love this country.....look how your extreme views are fragmenting it! Do you seriously believe people will unite behind the likes of Mogg and Johnson????

"Us Breexiteers" are those who voted by a majority for Brexit.
You are absolutely within your rights to disagree but to attempt to ignore or overturn the decision is why such fragmentation exists.
And that is mostly in media and in forums like this, not elsewhere.
Try to accept that - much though you don't like it - most people just want Brexit to be over and done so that the country can move on.

People united behind Brexit, hence the referendum result and ergo THAT is what people want.
The UK to leave the EU.

Who "rules" after that will, as you know only too well, be decided again by democratic vote.

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

Can't you see what you are saying here? You are hoping the EU breaks up so you can have your extreme brexit. In other words you are actually wishing for discord and fragmentation abroad. That's a religious zealotry foreign to reasonable people imo.

Not at all.
You can wriggle, squirm and deride all you want but no.

I am saying that the EU are yet to prove that they want to negotiate rather than to demand.
They are the ones wishing for discord and fragmentation and they display the zealotry of which you speak. That is why they are unable to get members to agree; they are domineering to the point of tyranny.

Again, why then are you not pointing you derision at them?

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

What do you mean meh....

I just watched this example showing that there will indeed be Labour dissenters. Unless you think Frank Field's view is unique amongst Labour MP's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpLqXjnIGU

A bit more here if you want it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43189875/brexit-frank-field-and-stella-creasy-clash-over-labour-s-brexit-policy

ukcarper

Moby wrote: »

What it means is we will have tariff free access to and from the EU markets, similar to Turkey's deal. It will apply to some areas of trade and not others, (basically whatever we can negotiate). This is crucial for job security and the Good Friday agreement and it seems the EU will accept this.

As far as I understand there are border checks between Turkey and EU.

BobQ

ukcarper wrote: »

I believe that the referendum vote set some red lines that shouldn’t be crossed. What red lines do you think we should abandon?

Which red lines? Please distinguish real red lines with what you believe was meant.

My view is the only defensible redline you can take from the vote is that we should be outside the EU (the political institutions).

No deal through EEA membership all meet that requirement.

Ballard

Brexiters can go on about the EU demanding things but one of the main arguments pre-referendum is that they need us more than we need them so how on earth are they in a position to demand?

We were repeatedly told that the big German corporations would be demanding that Merkel ensures that free trade continued between the UK and EU.

Not only did this not happen but Germany's massive auto industry immediately stated that they didn't want free trade with us.

How could the Leave campaign, who were apparently so certain of EU capitalisation over the issue, have got this quite so wrong?

Thrugelmir

Ballard wrote: »

Brexiters can go on about the EU demanding things but one of the main arguments pre-referendum is that they need us more than we need them so how on earth are they in a position to demand?

We were repeatedly told that the big German corporations would be demanding that Merkel ensures that free trade continued between the UK and EU.

Not only did this not happen but Germany's massive auto industry immediately stated that they didn't want free trade with us.

How could the Leave campaign, who were apparently so certain of EU capitalisation over the issue, have got this quite so wrong?

Or how badly people are informed.

Brake Block Brexit - How a hard Brexit would impact the
German automotive industry


https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/de/Documents/Brexit/Brexit-Briefings_Pt5_Hard-Brexit-German-car-industry.pdf

I'm sure that all vested interests will surface once the draft terms are agreed. Remember that the EU individually has to ratify the agreement. That's when the fun really starts.

tracey3596

Ballard wrote: »

Brexiters can go on about the EU demanding things but one of the main arguments pre-referendum is that they need us more than we need them so how on earth are they in a position to demand?

We were repeatedly told that the big German corporations would be demanding that Merkel ensures that free trade continued between the UK and EU.

Not only did this not happen but Germany's massive auto industry immediately stated that they didn't want free trade with us.

How could the Leave campaign, who were apparently so certain of EU capitalisation over the issue, have got this quite so wrong?

How can who have got what quite so wrong?
:think:

According to Fullfact the EU sells us £80 billion more than we sell them.
Each and every year.
That is more than the entire GDP of EU member countries Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia combined.


The EU are not in a position to demand.
But when has that ever stopped them in the past?

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6543/germany_buckles_business_admits_it_needs_uk_market

gfplux

tracey3596 wrote: »

The only ones "fighting like rats in a sack over Brexit" are remainers like yourself in forums like this , hence your incorrect assumption that the UK has "fallen in international significance".
It hasn't.
Really it hasn't.
The rest of the world (as in that which is outside the EU) are rightly far more concerned with their own matters to pay any heed to Brexit.

Maybe your opinion is a reaction to the current uncertainty in EU-land?

Merckel's position is not yet assured; the SPD vote will not give clarity until Friday at the earliest and Merckel's position is now far weaker than May's with the German election being a far worse reult for her than May's was.

The EU 27 are already squabbling about the next budget with recent announcements showing very clearly the divisions amongst EU countries. Merckel has already suggested that countries must accept migrants to qualify for EU funding too.

Italian elections look likely to further introduce extremists into another EU country's parliament following that of the Netherlands, Austria, Germany and others. (The UK has not a single extremist/populist/far right seat held in their parliament.)

Then of course there is your stated fear of a no-deal Brexit; all these examples suggest just why such spurious allegations as those quoted are put forward.
Basically, Brexit is drawing nearer but not in the "half-in" way many remainers seem to want.

What is it with your obsession with the future of the EU. You want to leave yet you also want the EU to to collapse. Smacks of if I can not be a member I don’t want anyone to be a member.

phillw

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Or how badly people are informed.

Only 52%. There is no way that the german car manufacturers will rescue brexit for the leavers. It looks like it's down to Jeremy to save us remoaners now.

(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)