Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

qwert_yuiop

GreatApe wrote: »

Probably the main reason healthcare is expensive in the USA is that they pay their doctors a lot more. A radiologist earns about 3x more in the USA

Since productivity in healthcare is pretty much the same across both countries (same drugs same machines same speed to perform an operation) it means in real terms the American health industry costs a lot more because they pay their healthcare workers a lot more.

So why do doctors and other healthcare workers earn more in America?
Well they have a stronger economy but perhaps also because their medical professions are more successful at limiting competition.

I think probably the NHS is better then the American system because there is some pressure from government against the medical profession limiting numbers to keep prices high. In the USA the profession is more successful in limiting numbers to create scarcity to push wages up.

Pretty much worldwide the medical profession is successful at limiting numbers to keep prices high. If you look at the country with the most doctors per capita Israel it spends one of the smallest sums in the world on healthcare 7.5% of GDP.

The main aim of government should be to screw the medical profession price fixing racket but since doctors have a lot of respect and are smart people they are good at rigging the system to favor themselves. That is true in the UK and it is more true in the USA.

Doctors in the uk are on a salary. Prices, as you call them, have no bearing on their income. Surgeons and psychiatrists are paid the same.

Isn’t it the insurance companies that are responsible for the excessive cost of health care there? Shareholders have to be paid.

Windofchange

Only Economic could turn a thread entitled "Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5" into a discussion about his mental health problems, the ineffectiveness of CBT, ObamaCare and a rant about private health insurance.

For what it's worth, there are a host of different treatment options for depression. By far the most effective in my view is exercise / hobbies. You can go to your GP and get tanked up on citalopram or other such meds if you want. You can go to CBT if you want. With mental health there isn't really a simple answer. As others have alluded to, CBT didn't work for you, but it certainly works for others. Saying just go watch youtube videos is just silly. A lot of the actual dealing with depression is interaction in a non-judgemental manner. Talk it out, find your own solution. You can't do this with youtube.

If you go on google scholar, cochrane etc and search for CBT, you will find a range of studies finding everything from limited effects to huge effects with regards to CBT in mental health. You will find the same with medications - if you get the chance, have a watch of Louis Theroux dark states to get a gist of what strong prescription medications can do to the human brain / communities at large:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2017/41/louis-theroux

If you want to go private, then go private. Plenty of Harley Street doctors ready to take your millions. I was privately educated as a kid. Do I think my parents should get a rebate from the government for their taxes that were spent on state schools? I pay for private dentistry - do I want a rebate for NHS dentists as I never use them? I absolutely believe we should provide education, health, safety etc for all as part of our taxes, and if you want to have more then by all means get out your cheque book.

You need to look beyond the end of your nose my man.

GreatApe

qwert_yuiop wrote: »

Doctors in the uk are on a salary. Prices, as you call them, have no bearing on their income. Surgeons and psychiatrists are paid the same.

Isn’t it the insurance companies that are responsible for the excessive cost of health care there? Shareholders have to be paid.

Just because the NHS is a monopoly does not mean they can dictate the wages of doctors to whatever they like. Doctors can leave to work in other countries or work privately or retire sooner or leave the profession to do other jobs.

All the worlds medical professions limit competition to drive wages higher
Governments and the public allow this to happen partly because they are stupid and partly because they trust and respect doctors

The American system is primarily more costly because the doctors earn a lot more over there. They earn a lot more because their healthcare system is more of a cartel than the UK or EU healthcare system.

Why do you think American doctors earn about twice that of EU doctors? Auto workers or retail works don't earn much more in the USA.

Sure maybe having a layer of insurance companies don't help but doctors earning $150k more per year than their EU cousins x 1 million doctors means they have a $150 billion additional cost just on doctor wages. They are also more restrictive eg some tasks we have nurses do here who are paid £30k a year they only allow doctors to do and doctors earn $300k a big difference. Why is it OK for a nurse to perform a task in the UK but they don't allow a nurse to do it in the USA a doctor must do it. Well its the medical profession cartel limiting competition to drive wages up for their member

resk

qwert_yuiop wrote: »

Well it seems we’re about to find out how universal basic income works, since it’s being introduced in Scotland.

Any links to the announcement of this, please?

GreatApe

The great thing about a real free market is that it provides good quality goods and services at all price points.

You can buy a brand new car for £6,000 or £600,000 that is a big price range difference and it means a nice wide range for all price points.
You can go to a restaurant and eat a meal for £8 or for £800
You can get a haircut for £5 or £500

Healthcare is not a free market not in the USA nor the UK (obviously)

If healthcare was a totally free market it would be affordable to all
You might have doctors that are highly qualified from the best universities and with 30 years experience charging $2000 a day.
You might have doctors who did a fast track 2 year course from a lower university ad only 3 years experience charging just $500 a day.
You might have a newly arrived Indian doctor who doesn't know any English but is fully qualified and experienced in India and could offer a service to Indian speaking customers for just $200 a day

Sure its not going to be the exact same quality just like a £50k car is not the same as a £15k car but they both are good value for the people who buy them


Of course the lefties cry that poor people should have no lesser quality doctors. Well why not ban all but the highest quality foods so supermarket prices double. Will that help the poor? If I then suggest maybe leaving food to the free market would be better sure there would be lower quality foods but affordable food even of at a lower quality is surely better than unaffordable food.

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

The great thing about a real free market is that it provides good quality goods and services at all price points.

You can buy a brand new car for £6,000 or £600,000 that is a big price range difference and it means a nice wide range for all price points.
You can go to a restaurant and eat a meal for £8 or for £800
You can get a haircut for £5 or £500

Healthcare is not a free market not in the USA nor the UK (obviously)

If healthcare was a totally free market it would be affordable to all
You might have doctors that are highly qualified from the best universities and with 30 years experience charging $2000 a day.
You might have doctors who did a fast track 2 year course from a lower university ad only 3 years experience charging just $500 a day.
You might have a newly arrived Indian doctor who doesn't know any English but is fully qualified and experienced in India and could offer a service to Indian speaking customers for just $200 a day

Sure its not going to be the exact same quality just like a £50k car is not the same as a £15k car but they both are good value for the people who buy them

A £6,000 or £600,000 car will get you from Brighton to London
An £8 or £800 meal will fill you up
A £5 or £500 haircut will cut your hair

A highly experienced doctor will not kill you where as a graduate from the international university of Lagos might.

GreatApe wrote: »

Of course the lefties cry that poor people should have no lesser quality doctors. Well why not ban all but the highest quality foods so supermarket prices double. Will that help the poor? If I then suggest maybe leaving food to the free market would be better sure there would be lower quality foods but affordable food even of at a lower quality is surely better than unaffordable food.

If you are able to re-write this in intelligible English then maybe the forum can comment.

GreatApe

A highly experienced doctor will not kill you where as a graduate from the international university of Lagos might

If we have free market healthcare you would find that 'middle men' provide the guarantees of quality.

Hospitals and GP centers (the 'middle men') would of course have a massive incentive to only hire staff competent enough to do the work.

In the same way Tesco has a massive incentive to make sure the food they sell (which they don't make themselves) is safe to eat.

economic

GreatApe wrote: »

If we have free market healthcare you would find that 'middle men' provide the guarantees of quality.

Hospitals and GP centers (the 'middle men') would of course have a massive incentive to only hire staff competent enough to do the work.

In the same way Tesco has a massive incentive to make sure the food they sell (which they don't make themselves) is safe to eat.

And i would get a competent GP to refer me for the right treatment rather then waste time and money on a useless CBT therapy that clearly does not work.

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

Just because the NHS is a monopoly does not mean they can dictate the wages of doctors to whatever they like. Doctors can leave to work in other countries or work privately or retire sooner or leave the profession to do other jobs.

What's your definition of a monopoly? Last time I checked it was a single provider with no competition. Last time I looked there were 101 competitors to the NHS - nuffield health, Virgin Healthcare, Bupa, Various Harley Street practices etc etc. How is the NHS the only place in the UK that you can receive healthcare?

GreatApe wrote: »

All the worlds medical professions limit competition to drive wages higher
Governments and the public allow this to happen partly because they are stupid and partly because they trust and respect doctors

Yup it's all a big scam. Nothing to do with the decades it takes to become a consultant surgeon or similar. In your world I know we can train an 18 year old in 2 weeks to perform neuro surgery, but maybe the amount of medical professionals is limited because it takes a significant investment to produce them, not because of some wicked plan by a group of directors in a dark room somewhere...

GreatApe wrote: »

The American system is primarily more costly because the doctors earn a lot more over there. They earn a lot more because their healthcare system is more of a cartel than the UK or EU healthcare system.

Why do you think American doctors earn about twice that of EU doctors? Auto workers or retail works don't earn much more in the USA.

Except they don't. They earn maybe 25% more:

https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

Also, factor into this the different income tax bandings with the UK versus the USA and you are way out.

GreatApe wrote: »

Sure maybe having a layer of insurance companies don't help but doctors earning $150k more per year than their EU cousins x 1 million doctors means they have a $150 billion additional cost just on doctor wages. They are also more restrictive eg some tasks we have nurses do here who are paid £30k a year they only allow doctors to do and doctors earn $300k a big difference. Why is it OK for a nurse to perform a task in the UK but they don't allow a nurse to do it in the USA a doctor must do it. Well its the medical profession cartel limiting competition to drive wages up for their member

Did you get your million figure off here:

https://www.statista.com/topics/1244/physicians/

Have a read and it shows that 144,000 are inactive, and 44,000 are unclassified. And where is your evidence for all US doctors earning $150k more than their UK counterparts?

Yet another post full of made up numbers and guesswork. :T

GreatApe

economic wrote: »

And i would get a competent GP to refer me for the right treatment rather then waste time and money on a useless CBT therapy that clearly does not work.

Doctors are not infallible
My father GP wanted to increase his statins dosage 3x and add a second type of statin due to a particularly high result

I had a look at his results and the data trend looked odd to me I advised him to stick with his current dosage for another month and get retested. His results turned out fine.
Had he gone with the doctors recommend it would have looked like the increased dosage and additional second drug had reduced a Hugh reading when in fact it was his previous reading that was a statistical anomaly

Saved him from needles additional meds
Doctors clearly need some additional statistical analysis training

PS to anyone reading this listen to your doctor don't listen to some internet nutter. (Don't want to lead people into not vaccinating their kids or not taking their aids medicine because of my story of a small mistake by a doctor. Conventional medicine works and listen to your doctor is a better bet than not listen to them)