Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Filo25

economic wrote: »

What you describe is exactly what placebo is.

Just to continue on this off-topic discussion, there is a difference here as anxiety itself often feeds on itself in a negative feedback loop (the fear of full on anxiety attacks raises your underlying stress levels and leads to more anxiety attacks), so knowing you have techniques that are effective in dealing with it, gets rid of that negative cycle of thoughts and symptoms.

As I said I have no idea what you had CBT treatment for, no doubt it isn't remotely as effective for other mental health issues, or how good your actual therapist was, but it is wrong to say that it is no better than placebo for all conditions which it is used to treat.

It won't cure things like anxiety, but it is certainly capable of reducing its impact on someone's life to a point where it has a negligible impact on my life without any medication.

I don't really like continuing on an off topic direction, but anxiety disorders are at ludicrously high levels in our society and I don't want anyone on here thinking that getting a CBT referral is the equivalent of homeopathy or some other pseudo-scientific nonsense, when it can be a very effective treatment for some (I know many other people it has helped as well)

economic

Filo25 wrote: »

IMHO we probably couldn't aspire to a worse health system than the US, ruinously expensive without giving universal coverage.

The reason the NHS is struggling has more to do with relative lack of funds than any structural failings, we spend less on healthcare than a lot of European countries and a lot less than US.

With regards to giving more than you take back from government spending that is how any progressive taxation system works, if you do well in life you will put in more than you take out, you still have a lot better life than most at the bottom of the income scale, I put in a hell of a lot more than I take out and I largely don't resent it apart from some of the weird bits of the tax system which lead to ludicrous marginal rates.

Mind you that doesn't mean I'm volunteering to be taxed to death by Corbyn either, balance is important as it always is, we need to have an economy where the incentives remain in place for the good and successful to go out and generate wealth, while at the same time redistributing enough to provide acceptable lives for those who are less fortunate.

I grew up well below the poverty line but was lucky enough to have good parents nonetheless and be born with skills that saw me do well in education and be in demand in employment ever since. I would love to claim that was entirely down to hard graft but really its good luck with genetics. My dad worked harder than I ever did and he barely earned more than minimum wage, at the same time I saw people around me who had little interest in working or contributing anything to society.

Balance for me also means offering support and a good safety net while also ensuring that it isn't possible to just freeload through life while having no interest in working or contributing in other ways.

The US is expensive because of Obama. What Trump wanted with healthcare reform was the right thing and would bring costs down but of course it did not get passed.

Its not always about providing more funds. Its about how we use these funds in the most efficient way possible.

I'm happy to pay a bit more marginal tax if i am a higher earner, however only if it is being spent wisely. But there is always a point when i would be paying too much then i should in marginal tax. From my calculations why shouldn't i have passed the point where i have paid too much?

I know a few friends who's parents are doctors. Their NHS pension is very generous. They have been higher earners but they also work for the state. Where do the NHS pension scheme get's its contributions from, the taxes paid to healthcare or the taxes paid towards state pensions? It would be healthcare right?

economic

Filo25 wrote: »

Just to continue on this off-topic discussion, there is a difference here as anxiety itself often feeds on itself in a negative feedback loop (the fear of full on anxiety attacks raises your underlying stress levels and leads to more anxiety attacks), so knowing you have techniques that are effective in dealing with it, gets rid of that negative cycle of thoughts and symptoms.

As I said I have no idea what you had CBT treatment for, no doubt it isn't remotely as effective for other mental health issues, or how good your actual therapist was, but it is wrong to say that it is no better than placebo for all conditions which it is used to treat.

It won't cure things like anxiety, but it is certainly capable of reducing its impact on someone's life to a point where it has a negligible impact on my life without any medication.

I don't really like continuing on an off topic direction, but anxiety disorders are at ludicrously high levels in our society and I don't want anyone on here thinking that getting a CBT referral is the equivalent of homeopathy or some other pseudo-scientific nonsense, when it can be a very effective treatment for some (I know many other people it has helped as well)

Again all this proves nothing about the actual usefulness of CBT apart from perhaps helping through having a placebo effect. Where is the hard unbiased evidence that CBT has actually helped you and others with anxiety?

Instead of going to CBT wouldn't a few youtube videos help instead having the same effect or even better? I heard mindfulness meditation helps. Why not give a bunch of youtube videos to watch instead of paying a therapist to administer CBT when there's no proof that it works?

Filo25

economic wrote: »

The US is expensive because of Obama. What Trump wanted with healthcare reform was the right thing and would bring costs down but of course it did not get passed.

Its not always about providing more funds. Its about how we use these funds in the most efficient way possible.

I'm happy to pay a bit more marginal tax if i am a higher earner, however only if it is being spent wisely. But there is always a point when i would be paying too much then i should in marginal tax. From my calculations why shouldn't i have passed the point where i have paid too much?

The US system has been expensive for as long as I can remember, too many people with their snouts in the trough in that system, there was probably more spent in the Obama years if only because there were a lot more people getting coverage, several EU countries generate universal coverage in a hybrid system a lot more cheaply.

The reason people like us will end up paying more on taxes is because some people don't earn enough to support themselves nevermind also contributing towards their healthcare, pensions, share of the education bill and all of the other services government provides, so clearly most of the burden falls on those of us lucky enough to earn more.

Equally we will never reach a utopia where each one of us will be happy with every penny spent by government, these decisions will always be compromises, I would imagine that is the case no matter how much or how little the government spends on tax.

Filo25

economic wrote: »

Again all this proves nothing about the actual usefulness of CBT apart from perhaps helping through having a placebo effect. Where is the hard unbiased evidence that CBT has actually helped you and others with anxiety?

Instead of going to CBT wouldn't a few youtube videos help instead having the same effect or even better? I heard mindfulness meditation helps. Why not give a bunch of youtube videos to watch instead of paying a therapist to administer CBT when there's no proof that it works?

There have already been cochrane reviews showing its effectiveness I believe.

Various anxiety disorders will have different drivers/symptoms etc. in different people that is where the discussion part of the therapy should work and allow the techniques to be tailored to the individual, so I would imagine just watching some youtube videos would be unlikely to be nearly as effective.

I'm very sorry that it didn't help you but that doesn't mean that it is a terrible treatment for many individuals and conditions, and we really are pulling this way off-topic.

economic

Filo25 wrote: »

The US system has been expensive for as long as I can remember, too many people with their snouts in the trough in that system, there was probably more spent in the Obama years if only because there were a lot more people getting coverage, several EU countries generate universal coverage in a hybrid system a lot more cheaply.

The reason people like us will end up paying more on taxes is because some people don't earn enough to support themselves nevermind also contributing towards their healthcare, pensions, share of the education bill and all of the other services government provides, so clearly most of the burden falls on those of us lucky enough to earn more.

Equally we will never reach a utopia where each one of us will be happy with every penny spent by government, these decisions will always be compromises, I would imagine that is the case no matter how much or how little the government spends on tax.

this is all very heart warming and socially gratifying but it doesn't really answer my concerns.

economic

Filo25 wrote: »

There have already been cochrane reviews showing its effectiveness I believe.

Various anxiety disorders will have different drivers/symptoms etc. in different people that is where the discussion part of the therapy should work and allow the techniques to be tailored to the individual, so I would imagine just watching some youtube videos would be unlikely to be nearly as effective.

I'm very sorry that it didn't help you but that doesn't mean that it is a terrible treatment for many individuals and conditions, and we really are pulling this way off-topic.

I do not think its off-topic. I am talking about the economy and part of that includes the health service.

CBT is very simple and the treatment applied is the same no matter what you have as a condition. It all comes back to thinking errors and how to correct that by thinking differently.

you can get youtube videos to tell you how to think differently. There are thousands available and a few one them my therapist sent to me.

So what is the true value of a CBT therapist and is it an efficient use of taxpayer money? Or could the money be used more wisely on research to try seek better treatments that actually work?

and more importantly shouldn't i be able to chose myself how the money should be used by seeking care from the private health service?

Filo25

Nothing to stop you getting private treatment if you want to, that is what I did to avoid the waiting time.

I have already said there have been reviews done on CBT's effectiveness, no doubt there are ongoing reviews on the most efficient way to provide it within the confines of the NHS as well, face to face therapies do seem to give better results than self help I believe, which I presume is why they are favoured, although that may differ by person, not everyone is likely to follow self help with the same dedication and understanding.

economic

Filo25 wrote: »

Nothing to stop you getting private treatment if you want to, that is what I did to avoid the waiting time.

I have already said there have been reviews done on CBT's effectiveness, no doubt there are ongoing reviews on the most efficient way to provide it within the confines of the NHS as well, face to face therapies do seem to give better results than self help I believe, which I presume is why they are favoured, although that may differ by person, not everyone is likely to follow self help with the same dedication and understanding.

Why should i have to pay for private when i already pay for public? I would be happy to go private if i got reimbursed for private medical treatment/insurance from the NHS.

Where is the proof that CBT works? Can you provide it?

If you have a system where nearly everyone uses a public service because its "free" would that not discourage the private sector for looking into more effective treatments being looked into and offered?

Filo25

economic wrote: »

Why should i have to pay for private when i already pay for public? I would be happy to go private if i got reimbursed for private medical treatment/insurance from the NHS.

Where is the proof that CBT works? Can you provide it?

If you have a system where nearly everyone uses a public service because its "free" would that not discourage the private sector for looking into more effective treatments being looked into and offered?

If you want a better NHS spend more money on it not less, we do not spend a particularly high proportion of GDP on healthcare by the standards of the developed western world, certainly compared to your beloved US model.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

Nobody is going to "prove" CBT works, medical science doesn't generally work that way, there are plenty of studies however which show it is effective in managing anxiety and panic disorders (as are other treatments) hopefully as time goes on they will find more cost effective ways of delivering it.