Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

scaredofdebt

Tromking wrote: »

I just simply don’t get how many Remain voters who seemingly for the sake of selfish pragmatism would be happy to see the referendum result overturned or ignored. The danger for our democracy is clear if the will of the people is sidelined on this for the sake of political expediency.
Thankfully I think the political class in the UK know this and although many of them are wriggling, Brexit will happen.
Even (I think) posters like Mayonnaise on here with his/her acerbic and flippant posting style realise that Brexit has to happen and seen to be a disaster, for it to be reversed.
That said, for me the machinations in our parliament recently have been a joy to watch, British politicians wrestling with big issues courtesy of the British electorate is why some of us voted to leave in the first place. Our democracy is slowly being restored.

I think it's perfectly sensible to have another referendum once the final deal is finalised, people will then know what they are actually voting for.

Brexit means Brexit indeed.

Some people voted leave as they want a reduction in immigration, will Brexit achieve that?

Some voted to leave as they wanted better trade deals, will Brexit achieve that?

Some wanted £350M for the NHS, so on and so forth, at least if we had another referendum after the deals have been done, people would know what they are voting for.

People voted for a myriad of different reasons, based on what they had been told by the leave campaign and the media. Some of it is true, some not.

I voted Remain as I could see both sides were lying but at least with Remain you know what you are getting, rather than just hoping for the best.

Ultimately I don't see it will make a lot of difference either way in the long run, but the short to medium term could be very turbulent.

We will never have true democracy in the UK whilst we have first past the post and the House of Lords, but "take back control" if you will.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Tromking wrote: »

You do know there'a a marked difference between 'access to' and 'being in' the single market don't you?.

I do indeed....

The difference is brutal for UK prosperity and tax revenue:

Britain cannot have a special deal for the City of London, the European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator has told the Guardian, dealing a blow to Theresa May’s hopes of securing a bespoke trade agreement with the bloc.

Michel Barnier said it was unavoidable that British banks and financial firms would lose the passports that allow them to trade freely in the EU, as a result of any decision to quit the single market.

“There is no place [for financial services]. There is not a single trade agreement that is open to financial services. It doesn’t exist.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/18/uk-cannot-have-a-special-deal-for-the-city-says-eu-brexit-negotiator-barnier

mrginge

ilovehouses wrote: »

I think the hard brexit crew are wrong. There's no reason we have to follow them just because they've got a clear proactive position and I don't have a fully formed alternative.

It’s ok wotsthat, people often give their support to things they don’t fully understand.

Maybe remember that the next time someone has a go at the thickos for not knowing what they voted for in the referendum.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

The political class knows the ramifications for our democracy if they suddenly design a Brexit that suits your world view and not mine.
Ignore the 52% at your peril.

Not really; because that 52% is far from united.

Remaining means that the 52% are upset.
Soft Brexit means the 48% + some split of the 52% are upset.
Hard Brexit means the 48% + some split of the 52% are upset.

Assuming the 52% split is by more than 2ppt (4%) hard/soft, then Remaining actually upsets the least people, as well as protecting the economy.

Tromking

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I do indeed....

The difference is brutal for UK prosperity and tax revenue:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/18/uk-cannot-have-a-special-deal-for-the-city-says-eu-brexit-negotiator-barnier

Then I`ll expect the complete capitulation by the UK Government on the single market issue sometime next year.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

You do know there'a a marked difference between 'access to' and 'being in' the single market don't you?

In reality they are the same thing.

Semantically, even WTO has access to the single market, but without any of the benefits of being within the single market.

When team UK are saying "access" to the single market, they mean "membership", but in such a weasely way as to avoid upsetting the Leavers. Same with "regulatory equivalence".

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Not really; because that 52% is far from united.

Remaining means that the 52% are upset.
Soft Brexit means the 48% + some split of the 52% are upset.
Hard Brexit means the 48% + some split of the 52% are upset.

Assuming the 52% split is by more than 2ppt (4%) hard/soft, then Remaining actually upsets the least people, as well as protecting the economy.

I think you're over thinking this.
Upset the 48% and they vote differently, upset the 52% and it's potentially a constitutional crisis. Soft or hard Brexit does not exist as it did not appear on the ballot paper.
If you want Brexit halted or watered down, vote Lib-Dem.

Arklight

Regardless of what the Kippers want, we aren't leaving the single market because more of the unelected elite wants to stay in it than leave. As Britain is a hierarchical class based society that abdicates most of it's decision making to rich people who went to Oxbridge, and rich people who went to Oxbridge dont't want to leave the single market, we won't.


Of course the Right could start taking some responsibility for what goes on in the UK at this juncture, rather than just spewing hate and poison about foreigners, that would lead to real change.


I'm not holding my breath.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

When team UK are saying "access" to the single market, they mean "membership", but in such a weasely way as to avoid upsetting the Leavers. Same with "regulatory equivalence".

So when in your view does Team-UK commit the Brexit betrayal and inform the 52% that we're not leaving the single market?

System

Just to clarify, are we saying that everyone who voted for Brexit had the intention of leaving the single market?