Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Thrugelmir

cogito wrote: »

Except for the comment about Austria, I agree with you. By no stretch of the imagination can Austria's government be called fascist. Right wing, yes, but fascist, no.

Last time Austria voted for a right wing government led by Jorg Haider, the EU went bananas and imposed sanctions. It will be interesting to see how they respond this time. They no longer have the strength to do anything other than wring their hands.

The Netherlands is governed by a 4 party coalition, which has managed to side line the Nationalist opposition. (Took 9 months to form ).

Macron has a sweeping parliamentry majority. Yet only 49% of the electorate bothered to turn out.

Merkel needs to form a coalition to survive.

There's very weak political leadership across much of Europe.

Tromking

kabayiri wrote: »

If we do stay in, we might as well just do away with things like votes and elections, because they will count for nothing. The educated political class can just govern by focus groups and opinion polls instead.

I just simply don’t get how many Remain voters who seemingly for the sake of selfish pragmatism would be happy to see the referendum result overturned or ignored. The danger for our democracy is clear if the will of the people is sidelined on this for the sake of political expediency.
Thankfully I think the political class in the UK know this and although many of them are wriggling, Brexit will happen.
Even (I think) posters like Mayonnaise on here with his/her acerbic and flippant posting style realise that Brexit has to happen and seen to be a disaster, for it to be reversed.
That said, for me the machinations in our parliament recently have been a joy to watch, British politicians wrestling with big issues courtesy of the British electorate is why some of us voted to leave in the first place. Our democracy is slowly being restored.

Ballard

Remainers are regularly portrayed as undemocratic whereas the vast majority of us are merely arguing that we don’t think that leaving is a good idea. I for one am pretty sure that I’ve never asked for a second referendum or for the vote to be ignored.

MPs have recently stated that they’ve received death threats merely for demanding that parliament has a vote on the eventual deal. One can only assume that those making the threats have a different definition of democracy as they must be happy for a small number of Tory MPs to decide on our future laws.

gfplux

For information, this is the latest email sent out by Amber Rudd/Home Office to EU Citizens living in the UK.
———
Home Office


Dear Xxxxxxxx

I’m proud that so many EU citizens like yourself have built your lives in the UK and made it your home. We value your contribution which is why the Government put safeguarding your rights as the first priority in the Brexit negotiations.

I am absolutely delighted that we have now reached an agreement with the EU that does this. I know that at times you’ve had an anxious wait while the fine details were ironed out, but we wanted to get it right and we have always had you at the forefront of our thoughts.

We have always said that we will continue to recognise the value you bring to our society, and that we will remain an open and diverse country. Hopefully this deal provides reassurance that we will do just that.

The agreement we have reached ensures the rights you and your family currently have remain broadly the same with access to healthcare, benefits and pensions protected. And your existing close family members living outside the UK retain the right to join you in future. These rights will be cemented in UK law meaning you can live your life as you do now with the security of knowing they won’t change. Irish citizens also have their existing rights, associated with the Common Travel Area arrangements, protected.

Away from the negotiations, my team at the Home Office has been working hard to build the digital system that you’ll use to get your new status. It’s being designed from scratch to be quick and simple to use. There won’t be bureaucratic hurdles – those processing applications will work in your favour.

What’s more, it will cost no more than the fee a British person pays for a passport and if you already have valid permanent residence documentation it will be free. There will be support for the vulnerable and those without access to a computer, and we’re working with EU citizens’ representatives and embassies to ensure the system works for everyone.

You do not need to do anything just yet. You will see more detail about the settled status scheme from us in the new year and we expect applications will open during the second half of 2018. In the meantime, please do share this message with your friends and family so that they too can stay up to date through our mailing list.

I hope that the agreement we have reached provides certainty to you and your family ahead of Christmas. EU citizens, like yourself, who have made the UK their home are our family, our neighbours and our colleagues and we want you to stay.

Have a very happy Christmas.

Yours sincerely,

Amber Rudd
Home Secretary

mrginge

Ballard wrote: »

Remainers are regularly portrayed as undemocratic whereas the vast majority of us are merely arguing that we don’t think that leaving is a good idea. I for one am pretty sure that I’ve never asked for a second referendum or for the vote to be ignored.

If you are still arguing that leaving isn’t a good idea then the follow up is what you think should be done about that.
If the answer is nothing let’s get on with it, then it’s not an argument. Simply a restatement of the same debate that was finished 18 months ago.

Ballard

mrginge wrote: »

If you are still arguing that leaving isn’t a good idea then the follow up is what you think should be done about that.
If the answer is nothing let’s get on with it, then it’s not an argument. Simply a restatement of the same debate that was finished 18 months ago.

I take your point but the same surely applies to those in favour of leaving. By and large they appear to be in full voice stating that everything will be rosy once we leave. If I don’t disagree with them it’s almost like a tacit agreement.

mrginge

Ballard wrote: »

I take your point but the same surely applies to those in favour of leaving. By and large they appear to be in full voice stating that everything will be rosy once we leave. If I don’t disagree with them it’s almost like a tacit agreement.

Doesn’t that just illustrate the futility of the whole debate?

The only real debate is about the future. And the problem with that is that very few people are willing to stand up and make definitive statements about what they want to happen. It’s all wooly crap - especially from labour who just want to ‘leave things on the table’

The only proactive opinion comes from the hard brexit politicians and they just get shot down by people with no real detail on their alternative.
And that’s probably why the final outcome will be reactive instead, with the dealmakers on both sides too scared to make too much change.

mayonnaise

Tromking wrote: »

I just simply don’t get how many Remain voters who seemingly for the sake of selfish pragmatism would be happy to see the referendum result overturned or ignored. The danger for our democracy is clear if the will of the people is sidelined on this for the sake of political expediency.
Thankfully I think the political class in the UK know this and although many of them are wriggling, Brexit will happen.
Even (I think) posters like Mayonnaise on here with his/her acerbic and flippant posting style realise that Brexit has to happen and seen to be a disaster, for it to be reversed.
That said, for me the machinations in our parliament recently have been a joy to watch, British politicians wrestling with big issues courtesy of the British electorate is why some of us voted to leave in the first place. Our democracy is slowly being restored.

Brexit will happen, don't worry too much about that, but for it not to be a disaster, it will need to be a very very soft one.

I also enjoyed our democracy being restored. From a parliament meekly rubber-stamping anything that had 'brexit is awesome' on it, to MP's now openly rebelling against some aspects of it, despite the intimidation and death threats.

mrginge

mayonnaise wrote: »

Brexit will happen, don't worry too much about that, but for it not to be a disaster, it will need to be a very very soft one.

Hi mayo,

Can you put some ballpark numbers on this potential disaster please so we can all decide if you’ve got any kind of clue or are just making stuff up.

Matt_L

mayonnaise wrote: »

Brexit will happen, don't worry too much about that, but for it not to be a disaster, it will need to be a very very soft one.

I also enjoyed our democracy being restored. From a parliament meekly rubber-stamping anything that had 'brexit is awesome' on it, to MP's now openly rebelling against some aspects of it, despite the intimidation and death threats.

Last weeks vote against the Government by the rebels was imo as dishonest as it gets. When you look at people like Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve, they argued that taking back control of our laws, rules and so on was what amendment 7 was all about. However, because they will without question vote to keep us in the SM and CU then their vote will give those powers straight back to the EU...

Obviously the death threats on both sides are completely uncalled for, although most supporting us leaving the EU have had to put up with these types of threats for many years...